CHARITY’S ASTOUNDING ARROGANCE STUNS GRADUATE FOG
In the last few months, Graduate Fog has seen some shocking displays of arrogance among those organisations which continue to expect young people to work for nothing, in the form of unpaid internships.
But folks, this one takes the biscuit.
The National Trust has advertised for an unpaid intern to be their ‘Internship Programme Coordinator’. In other words, this unpaid worker is there solely to help set up the organisation’s new internship programme, which will encourage more interns to come and work for them unpaid.
I quote: “As an intern yourself, you’ll be able to advise colleagues on how best to recruit and support fellow interns.”
Translation: “You’ll be working for nothing, and we’ll waste your time by asking you what it’s like working for us nothing, so that it becomes even easier for us to encourage more young people to work us for nothing. See? Aren’t we geniuses?!”
As the National Trust rolls out an expensive-looking new advertising campaign across London Underground (slogan: ‘Time well spent’) its audacious request raises the question: “Time well spent, for WHOM?”
What real value does the intern get from this experience? Or is it really only the National Trust that gains anything from this internship? And when they descend to levels like this, for how much longer can charities hope to keep passing off their ‘internships’ as true ‘volunteer’ roles?
Here is an excerpt from the astonishing advertisement, which appears on the National Trust’s own website:
We’ll be launching a brand new internship progamme this summer and we’d like you to help make it happen. Based at our award-winning central office, you’ll be involved in all aspects of this exciting programme, from its development and launch through to its successful implementation. As an intern yourself, you’ll be able to advise colleagues on how best to recruit and support fellow interns. On other words, you’ll give us an invaluable insight into what interns want from a programme – and how we can make sure that our programme stands out.
We’d like you to have some experience of planning and delivering progescts – and to tight deadlines too. Full of ideas and initiative, quick and keen to learn, you’ll enjoy working in a team but can also get your head down on your own when needed. Just as important, you’ll be a clear communicator, with the confidence to work with colleagues across the organisation. You’ll also need IT skills, MS Word, Excel and PowerPoint especially.
This ‘Internships Programme Coordinator’ role was one of four positions advertised recently by the National Trust. It stated that the internship would last for six months, during which interns can expect to work up to 30 hours a week. No expenses were offered.
Here is what happened when I emailed the National Trust:
From: Graduate Fog
To: National Trust press officeHi,
My name is Tanya de Grunwald and I run a graduate careers advice website called Graduate Fog.
I am surprised to see that you are openly advertising for unpaid interns to help you at the National Trust, for up to 30 hours a week for up to nine months, paying expenses only. The four roles currently advertised are:
- Volunteering communications coordinator (6 months)
- Internship Programme Coordinator (6 months)
- Volunteering & community involvement strategy coordinator (6-9 months)
- Change programme liaison assistant (contract length not stated)As we all know, unpaid internships have become commonplace. However, it is my belief that they are ethically dubious – and their legal status is unclear. My understanding is that there is currently a loophole in the law designed to protect genuine volunteering for organisations with charitable status – which I understand the National Trust has – but it is my belief that this is being exploited by many large organisations simply looking to cut their costs at the expense of their most junior members of staff.
For all of these role descriptions, the National Trust goes into great detail about the nature of the work involved in each internship. In my opinion, the roles that you describe in your advertisements are not those of a true charitable volunteer. To me, all four ‘internships’ sound to me like jobs that should be paid.
In the ‘About our Internships’ paragraph, you say:
“You’ll be involved in, even manage, key projects. Real projects too, with real responsibility…”
Then, for the volunteering communications coordinator role, you say:
“As well as managing communications and writing new web content, you’ll look at we use social media and online communities to talk to current and potential volunteers. You’ll also help us to create a brand new ‘volunteers area’ on our website…”
For the internship programme coordinator role you say:
“We’ll be launching a brand new Internship Programme this summer and we’d like you to help make it happen… you’ll be involved in all aspects of this exciting programme, from its development and launch through to its successful implementation. As an intern yourself, you’ll be able to advise colleagues on how best to recruit and support fellow interns…”
For the volunteering & community involvement strategy coordinator, you say:
“Through interviews, workshops and focus groups, you’ll talk to key stakeholders to make sure that we’re effectively delivering our strategy. As well as identifying key milestones, knowing what needs to be achieved when, you’ll help to ensure that everyone in the Trust knows about our plans for volunteer and community involvement…”
For the change programme liaison assistant role you say:
“You’ll identify how we’ll we’re progressing against our key milestones. You’ll find out where obstacles are and how best we can overcome them. In everything you do, you’ll be a real champion for the ‘Performing at our best’ priority, communicating this vital value with clarity and enthusiasm…”
Even if we set your legal obligations aside for a moment, does the National Trust not accept that that these unpaid internships take advantage of those who do them – and exclude those who can’t afford to do them? Frankly, considering the National Trust’s excellent reputation, I would expect your organisation to be more careful about being seen to take advantage of young workers like this. Do you not agree that you are effectively only offering these placements to those who can afford to work for free, thereby excluding those who can’t afford this ‘luxury’?
Having had recent dealings with Comic Relief on a similar case, I understand that volunteering is a crucial aspect of charitable organisations’ work. However, I – and my users – feel it is important not to confuse genuine volunteering (which people do in their spare time, out of the goodness of their heart) with unpaid interning (which people do full-time, because they are desperate for experience and feel they have no alternative).
I will be blogging about next week and would be very grateful if somebody from the National Trust would care to comment (in writing, via email) on this at your earliest convenience. Are you willing to reconsider your position and turn these roles into paid opportunities?
With many thanks
Tanya
The National Trust replied:
From: National Trust press office
To: Graduate FogHello,
Please see below for some words responding to your query about our internships.
Feel free to give me a call if you’d like to discuss further.
Best wishes,
Mike Collins
Senior Press Officer (natural environment)National Trust internships
As a charity and organisation that works with tens of thousands of volunteers these voluntary internships are just one way in which people can support the organisation whilst looking to develop their own skills and experience.
We are committed to ensuring that opportunities created through the National Trust Internship Programme are accessible to as wide a range of applicants as possible, whether recent graduates or people seeking a career change. There are also a range of long term voluntary roles which help people get a foothold in to a career path of their choice.
Our internships are designed to offer people of all ages, and backgrounds the chance to gain some solid work experience in an area of their choice.
All our internships are purely voluntary and arrangements are not legally binding. As with all volunteering opportunities with the National Trust, out-of-pocket travel costs between home and the volunteering place will be paid, and other reasonable expenses agreed in advance.
We’ve designed this programme so that all of our opportunities are part time and we ensure that they are as flexible as possible to allow time for paid work, job seeking or alternative training. This ensures that our Interns are still able to undertake paid work or claim Jobseekers Allowance whilst volunteering with us.
Internships are just one opportunity to develop a career with the Trust. We also run a range of apprenticeships and traineeships, both paid and unpaid.
We are currently recruiting some volunteer internship roles which will ensure that volunteers have an opportunity to lead the development of our volunteering offer. The recruitment process will be testing and thorough and we will help interns as much as possible so that they can move into full-time work.
Annoyed? So was I – so I wrote back:
From: Graduate Fog
To: National Trust Press OfficeThanks for this Mike. You have clearly taken great care over this response, but I am disappointed that it fails to answer the majority of my questions. I anticipate that most of my users will feel similarly frustrated.
To clarify, does the National Trust not feel any sense that these internships are ethically dubious?
I am also interested in the point you make about your internships being taken up by people of all ages. Whilst I believe that your volunteers are of all ages, I find it very hard to believe that these internships are taken up by people of all ages, given the nature of the work, which is clearly designed to appeal to those in the early stages of their careers and eager to gain work experience. In order to support your point, would you be able to find out the average age of your interns at the National Trust?
Also, should we take it that you are unwilling to consider turning these internships into paid opportunities?
With thanks again,
Tanya
PS. I would prefer not to speak on the phone as it is best to have this in writing so that you cannot claim that I have misquoted you.
PPS. Do you get paid to do your job?
At this point, it all went quiet. So about a week later I wrote:
From: Graduate Fog
To: National Trust press officeHi Mike
Are you planning to respond to my email? Or have you said everything you wish to say?
Thanks again,
Tanya
A few days later, the National Trust replied:
From: National Trust press office
To: Graduate FogHi Tanya,
I’m sorry that I didn’t respond. I think that we’ll keep to that statement.
Thanks,
Mike
This is the debate that won’t die. Nick Clegg used it last week when justifying unpaid internships within the Lib Dems – and charities of all sizes are doing the same thing. I know we’re not supposed to pick on (supposedly) lovely charities, which are run by (supposedly) lovely people – but what I’m seeing is decidedly un-lovely. And I’m not about to let this one go.
I’m dismayed to see charities like Comic Relief and the National Trust dragging their excellent reputations into the gutter by using unpaid interns – and trying desperately to convince us all that these are ‘volunteer’ roles.
People who genuinely volunteer do so out of the goodness of their hearts.
These are not volunteer roles. In my opinion they are cynically targeted at young people (usually graduates) who are so desperate for experience that they will work for free if they can afford it. As a result, those who can’t afford it are effectively locked out of working in the charity sector, where long stretches of unpaid experience are a necessity before even being considered for paid roles, however junior.
I know times are tough in the charity sector right now. But looking to unpaid workers to fill the gaps in your balance sheet isn’t fair or right. You know it and we know it. Find another way to balance your books. Do more fundraising, spend less on advertising and PR, ditch a few expensive executives – frankly, we don’t care. But STOP taking advantage of young workers.
*What do you think of the National Trust’s “Internship Programme Coordinator” role?
Is the National Trust taking advantage of its brand name to trick a young person into working for them for free? Is there any way this could be viewed as a true volunteer role?
Now that takes the cake. I understand that the NT have stuff all money (or so I’ve been led to believe) but this is just insulting. It could only have been worse if they’d been working on developing a paid scheme.
But I think it’s interesting that the individual you emailed refused to respond ‘off the bat’. He’s obviously learned from the Modus PR incident of not being on record stating anything off the cuff…
@RedHeadFashionista
If they really have no money, then who is paying for all the advertising that’s all over London Underground right now? I bet they hired an expensive agency to do those ads and come up with the ‘Time well spent’ slogan etc… So often it just turns out to be BS that these folks have no money. Compared with what they spend on advertising and PR, paying an intern is a TINY amount. That’s one of the reasons this makes me so angry – that an the pious tone of those who work in their PR depts, who take delight in reminding me that they are a CHARITY which relies on ‘volunteers’.
You’ll notice our friend Mike didn’t respond to the question about whether HE gets paid? Of COURSE he does! Grr…
“Please see below for some words responding to your query about our internships.” That’s it?! A press officer who’s not willing to answer direct questions about the organisation he’s suppose to be spokesman for?
Wow. Mike Collins, Senior Press Officer seems like he would be really inspirational character for an intern to learn from. Or is it really the other way around? Free labour from inspiration graduates and Mr Collins job is done for free?
If they can pay for an expensive advertising campaign then they can pay the people working for them. ALL of them! Shocking and sickening. Well done for exposing this Tanya, I completely agree with your stance.
I definitely don’t think that charities should be permitted to abuse minimum wage legislation in this way. As we all know – and especially now with the changes we are seeing to public services with the ‘big society’ – the state is farming out provision of ever more of its services to third sector groups. If we don’t get a hold of this now, we’ll see ‘interns’ at work in all sorts of unwelcome places.
Employers from all sectors need to work out a living wage they are willing to pay for these jobs, cutting down on the number of internship opportunities they offer if necessary, advertise them openly, and recruit like they would for a normal position, through application and interview – with no bonus points awarded for having had the ability to work for free in the past – and PAY THE STAFF. For unpaid positions, ask themselves, will the candidate gain an advantage in the labour market for undertaking this position? is this position accessible to people without access to a private income, or financially able to take a chance on finding another job to accommodate work around it? If the answer to the second question is no, never mind the legalities, it’s unethical to offer it. People with children, for example, should be in with a chance.
Unpaid internships in the arts should be limited to professional training placements undertaken as part of an approved degree or training scheme for which the candidate has already secured funding. Even unpaid summer internships discriminate against those who are having to do paid work during summer holidays from undergraduate courses. Volunteering arrangements need to be clearly defined as such and definitely part-time.
The problem is, that many people (especially those without kids) are in a gray area where they can take out a career development loan or take on an overdraft in order to pursue an internship, especially if they’re one or two years on from graduating and are desperate to leave jobs they are unhappy in. Masters courses (don’t get me started on the scandal of unequal access to most of postgraduate education!) are sometimes the alternative to unpaid work experience as access to desirable careers, and internships – sometimes cheaper, and possibly needed even with a masters – are not a bad gamble compared with these courses for people that are determined. It is not only the rich that undertake them. But why should anyone pay to do this work, especially when tuition fees will be so high? Sadly, many going into heritage are women, who will end up in low-paid, part-time, insecure, yet highly skilled work, and find themselves in trouble later in life when they need a bit more money.
It is absurd for access to the museum profession, in particular, to be structured in this way, and then a few ‘diversify’ traineeships be offered each year as a token gesture – this sort of thing should be the norm.
We need to admit that oversupply of BA graduates seeking ‘interesting’ and well-paid jobs has simply raised the bar for entry into these professions, whether through postgrad education, work experience or both, with a high proportion of jumping it (for the people of a middling sort of talent/chutzpah, as most of us are) down to monetary advantage. Responsible employers need to provide short-term, apprentice-like, paid contracts, aimed at students and graduates, like those in the private sector who want to recruit the best talent already do!
It’s a shame the trade union movement isn’t stronger in this country.
I’ve always distrusted organisations that use the intern trick to avoid the minimum wage legislation. When so-called ethical organisations resort to varieties of these employment tricks then you have to wonder if politicians have their heads in the sand, or in the trough. The National Trust is big business trading as a charity these days. The ethos of Acorn Camps has long gone. If you are sn NT member do every young person a favour and cancel your subscription explaining why. They’ll soon get the message.
You can bet your bottom dollar that Mike Collins is paid to do his work. A bottom dollar that this unpaid worker won’t have.
Disgusting behaviour by an organisation like this; National Trust you should be ashamed of yourself.
As a single parent and graduate-to-be, I cannot understand how anyone can afford to ‘donate’ 6 months of their life with no remuneration for essentials like, you know, food, transport etc. Perhaps I am expected to ‘donate’ my kids to a charitable trust while I work for sweet F*A* and they can work too.
It seems the only way into many jobs in the charity sector if you want to work for a national. Your qualifications are meaningless only your ability to undertake slave labour with no reward or guarantees of work at the end.
Yet another example of greedy charities!
I can’t believe how naive I was back in the day when I graduated in 2009 and wanted a job with a social focus.
What have I ended up with? 2 months on the Vodafone World of Difference programme (a paid job I got myself with a charity) and another paid 3-week contract. That is 3 months of paid work out of 20 months non-stop experience.
The rest of my work has been unpaid. I gave up on unpaid internships after 5 months’ worth in 2009 and will never do another.
I’m still working for nothing on my own projects. I’m weary of that now because I seem to be in a permanent state of volunteering.
I ADVISE ANY 2011 GRADS NOT TO GO IN TO CHARITY. THERE ARE NO PAID JOBS THERE for young people, skilled or unskilled. Even paid jobs for young people in charities are enjoying a race to the bottom where salaries of 12 grand a year are not uncommon.
(It’s also a nepotistic club)
@Joddle
So Joddle, you graduated in 2009 and have been temping here and there with just a few months pay? What in/where? Have you managed to secure anything?
@Tanya
‘PPS. Do you get paid to do your job?’ This is ace! But agreed, why, OH WHY do employers think it’s OK not to pay people? Logically there isn’t a good/moral reason.
It would be nice if I could find an employer who could pay for my rent somewhere in London for like a month or two while I could do a short internship in marketing (That’s my job flavour this month).
However while utter garbage like this slips under the radar, I’m going to have to make do elsewhere. These stories (and more) need press. Media uprising…?
Shameful as it is, this behaviour sadly doesn’t surprise me. I’ve interviewed a former comms director of a big charity, who told me off-record of the amount of hypocrisy that goes on in them (and was disdainful of unpaid internships….). What also struck me, though, looking at her career path and that of similar others, is how few senior figures in charities started off in or even aspired towards that sector. Most ‘fell in’, having begun their careers in admin, B2B/trade journalism, copywriting, the NHS or local government and picked up transferable skills there. While none of those sectors is exactly buoyant at the moment (show me any sector which is!), they probably offer better prospects than working for nothing for months on end for a supposed goodwill organisation does.
I do recall one charity running a paid graduate scheme a few years ago…happily it still exists (alongside their expenses-only ‘volunteering and internship’ opportunities, of course…).
@Michael the paid jobs at charities were:
1)events organsing for volunteers
2)producing design software fundraising communications and copywriting.
I believe you have had trouble finding an internship? They are widespread in London but are not a good route to go down as seldom lead to paid employment.
My uncle may be about to give me a job. Could this be the light at the end of the tunnel? Sadly, this is the way of the world. Have any foggers managed to get a paid job with a charity through the normal application and interview process?
Would you volunteer your time to tell your neighbours to recycle? I did! This used to be a paid job:
http://wasteam.co.uk/15/recycling/would-you-volunteer-20-plus-hours-to-%E2%80%98inspire%E2%80%99-your-neighbours-to-recycle/
Wondering why there aren’t any jobs about anymore? How about being a volunteer litter picker? I’m not joking!
@ Topchat
Good idea, I think we will do that!
It’s awful to see so many people working for NOTHING to gain experience, only to be told that they need even more UNPAID experience before anyone will give them a chance. This is affecting the best and brightest that the country has to offer, and from conversations I’ve had, other countries are going to benefit when they give up on finding meaningful work at home and go elsewhere.
@ Joddle ‘I ADVISE ANY 2011 GRADS NOT TO GO IN TO CHARITY. THERE ARE NO PAID JOBS THERE for young people, skilled or unskilled. Even paid jobs for young people in charities are enjoying a race to the bottom where salaries of 12 grand a year are not uncommon.’
I have to say that this is rubbish. Whilst I dont fully agree with what the National Trust are doing, you are wrong to say that there are no jobs in the charity sector. The sector is absolutely thriving – and I gained a fantastic job for a small charity after interning for 6 months. Salaries range from small to large – but as in any job, this is based on your skill set.
Whether you agree or not with the ethical status of internships, its irresponsible to put off graduates from working for some great organisations that DO actually make a real difference.
When I graduated in 2001, it took me two years of temping to find a job, so the problem of graduate employment is not some sort of overnight phenomenom. Charities have long offered full time, highly responsible roles as unpaid volunteer jobs – including senior fundraisers, accountants, marketeers, volunteer co-ordinators and support workers. Internships are just another way of packaging this existing work. There is a huge difference between this situation for charities and large multi-national businesses – who exist only to make a profit, unlike charities, who have a responsibility to deliver their charitable objectives – using Interns as cheap labour. If you can’t appreciate the difference, you probably aren’t suited to working in the charitable sector. There are plenty of entry level jobs, and paid routes into charity work. But “I know times are tough in the charity sector right now. But looking to unpaid workers to fill the gaps in your balance sheet isn’t fair or right. You know it and we know it. Find another way to balance your books. Do more fundraising, spend less on advertising and PR, ditch a few expensive executives – frankly, we don’t care. But STOP taking advantage of young workers” – seriously? Can you hear yourself?!
@JM
So JM, were your two years temping paid? If not, did you mind?
@JM
Sorry I should have read the rest of your comment before posting, are you trolling? If not, here’s what I don’t agree with:
1)
‘There is a huge difference between this situation for charities and large multi-national businesses – who exist only to make a profit, unlike charities’
What?! Of course charities need to make a profit how else CAN they ‘deliver their charitable objectives’? Both look to make a profit, JM, it appears you still believe charities, being such, aren’t afraid to cut a few throats?
2)
Furthermore using ‘interns as cheap labour’ is morally viable? (Not to mention, unpaid isn’t cheap – It’s free!) So essentially, your saying it’s fine that charities don’t pay some workers because they its ‘for a good cause’. Well guess what, my beans on toast are a needy cause, so cough up!
3)
Thirdly; I actually found this quite funny.
‘If you can’t appreciate the difference, you probably aren’t suited to working in the charitable sector’
So because we believe in equality, justice in the workplace and a better deal for graduates, we’re uncharitable? Because we’re letting people starve (insert failed charity objective here) because we’re SO selfish for even being paid minimum wage.
JM you are under some supreme illusion and grandeur of charities- Its madness.
Madness? MADNESS? This is SAAALLLVVVAAAATTTIIIOOOON ARMYYY
JM 2001 was an age away. Your experience is outmoded. It would have been far easier for the class of 2001 to get a job in charity.
@Emily I actually said there are no paid jobs for young people in charity. (Except FJF roles finishing up which the government pays for).
Get off your high horse of course enough people still want to work in charity.
I am pleased you got your job at the small charity after interning 6 months. Many charities exploit young people.
@ Joddle
You’re right, many do. However many dont, and it seems that you and I have just had wildly different experiences (I also graduated in 2009).
There are jobs in charities for young people, and although the starting salaries might be lower than in other sectors, I was willing to compromise because I think the enjoyment that can be gained for working for a charity that deals with a cause you do actually believe in (not to sound too cheesy) is far higher than working in another sector where the pay might be much more.
@Emily
I agree with you up to a point. We all know that some industries pay well, while others do not. But that is not what we’re talking about here. Low pay is one thing, but NO pay is something else.
And we are also talking about the knock-on effects that this ‘no pay for months’ culture is having on starting salaries, when these young people finally do land a permanent job. All these questions are entirely legitimate.
What makes me slightly uncomfortable about your comment is that (unless i’m wrong?) it contains the suggestion that young people asking for a fair wage for their qualifications (and experience) are in some way being greedy, especially when asking for this from a charity, or indeed any organisation that does ‘good’ work and/or gives them a sense of satisfaction.
This concerns me because if we follow this logic to its conclusion, we could be sliding towards a situation whereby the only people who get paid properly for their labour are those who either hate their jobs or those who work for companies who don’t do good work. Is this really what we want? Some jobs have always been notoriously badly paid (eg nursing) and obviously people who are purely money-motivated wouldn’t choose to do that kind of work. But I do think that nurses have the right to be paid properly (whatever that might mean, but definitely significantly above the NMW) – and have the right to expect their salary to increase reasonably steadily throughout their career.
The other thing about accepting rock-bottom wages as a fact of life in any industry that does ‘good’ work is that these careers will simply become unaffordable for many to pursue, even those who feel a real sense of vocation. Graduates are starting their working life in 30k of debt – and that’s before the huge jump in fees planned for next year. Under these circumstances, the people who choose to pursue such low-paid work in ‘good’ professions will be nothing short of saintly. Because in effect they will be signing up to a lifetime of debt simply because their employer/industry isn’t prepared to pay them what their work is worth.
@Michael. Many charities rely on unpaid volunteers, and have done for years. If you search charity job sites, you will see that there are dozens of jobs – many of them responsible and even senior roles – advertised as volunteer positions. RNLI lifeboat crews are mainly volunteers. Graduate internships are another type of volunteer role.
Starting salaries are lower for graduates in the charitable sector, because generally speaking, all salaries are lower in the charitable sector than their private sector equivalents. For example, a Chief Executive of a major national charity may earn approximately £60-80k – can you imagine the CEO of a commercial business with a multi-million ound turnover being paid this much?!
In addition, if charities are to pay more, this money has to come from somewhere, and most charities depend on fundraised income. As the public has a massive issue with administration and staff costs of charities, and think it is disgusting that charities pay their staff at all, as all their money should go on their charitable work, you can see the difficulty in securing this additional income surely?!
1. Charities have a duty to operate in the ‘public benefit’ (see Charities Commission). I cannot see how it is justifiable to put an unpaid, potentially untrained and inexperienced ‘intern’ in charge of other interns – what do they know about H&S, employer’s responsibility, liabilities, employment law, disciplinaries – all the responsibility of an employer whatever their legal status.
2. I take issue with the charity saying “Internships are just one opportunity to develop a career with the Trust. ” this is clearly a nod toward the potential opportunity of a paid job with the trust – enticement – something that the HMRC NMW Enforcement and the law take a dim view of.
3. I take issue with “, out-of-pocket travel costs between home and the volunteering place will be paid, and other reasonable expenses agreed in advance.” the NMW does not permit “other reasonable expenses” – under the exemption for charities benefits in kind are clear and explicit, food, accommodation and actual travel costs.
What I take issue with most of all is the fact that the Nationa Trust has the temerity to have an Equal Opps policy that it completely ignores. “Equality and diversity
The Trust is committed to ensuring that the principles of equality and diversity remain at the forefront of the selection, appointment and election processes. Equality is about creating a fairer society where everyone can participate and has the opportunity to fulfil their potential. It can be summarised in terms of equal access, treatment, shares and outcomes and is backed by legislation designed to address unfair discrimination. Diversity is about the recognition and valuing of difference in its broadest sense. It is about creating a working culture and practices that recognise, respect, value and harness difference for the benefit of the organisation and the individual.”
That said the Trust also has a whistleblowing policy – care to blow anyone? http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-governance-principles.pdf
JM are you kidding me?
If you are doing a job that is responsible for raising money for the company, charity or not, you should be paid. If the job you are doing actually contributes to the successful operation of the business you should be paid. I think you need to look at that. Volunteering is one thing, exploitation (which many of these charities advocate against!), is another.
I recieved an email from my father yesterday telling me I’m required to apply for one of these internships and that I must submit to his ‘coaching’ so that I have the best possible chance of getting the thing. It is a complete and utter joke. I don’t even live in Swindon, where their office is, I live in Bristol, so I will be quite out of pocket because of the bus and train fares. Also the thing is for 6 months. 6 MONTHS – FOR FREE! I think about how much my boyfriend and my brother will be earning in their paid jobs during that time and it disgusts me that I am expected to work for sweet FA, 30 hours a week! How they can pass the internship off as ‘volunteering’ is beyond me. I actually already volunteer at a very small local animal charity. I don’t mind giving a few hours a week because it is just a few hours, and I’m not expected to take on the duties of an employee. Also, why should you have to go through a ‘testing’ recruitment process to be a volunteer?! When I read the role description, it was interesting to see that they had put a disclaimer at the bottom of each page, saying that the role was purely voluntary and that there was no employment contract. So on top of being unpaid, you also have no legal rights. What a brilliant, wonderful opportunity! I’ve been unemployed since I finished my masters degree in autumn 2009, and I have to beg money off my boyfriend just so I can afford my painkillers, but by god I at least have the dignity not to be someone’s indentured servant for 6 frigging months!
If you don’t want it then… don’t apply for it?
That is hardly the full story Tim.
I am sympathetic to the views expressed here that unpaid ‘intern’ roles are exploitative, but quite frankly, for most charities the alternative is not to re-advertise these positions as paid roles, but not to have them at all. If your campaigning is successful, charities will simply withdraw these roles altogether, meaning that a valuable opportunity to gain experience as a launchpad to paid work is lost. It’s a hard fact of life that you need experience to get a job, and you need a job to get experience. Unpaid volunteer roles, internships, work experience placements(whatever you choose to call them)provide a way for people to get this experience and a ‘foot in the door’ they otherwise would have no way of getting. No, charities shouldn’t exploit such people but let’s get real – most charities are not out to screw what they can out of their staff or volunteers (though that is sometimes an unfortunate by-product) – and if you don’t like it or you already have sufficient experience to get yourself a paid job then great, don’t apply. But if you don’t have that experience, surely having the option of applying for some unpaid experience as a stepping stone is a good thing. Enough people actively seek out internship/volunteering opportunities that are not advertised. Charities are simply responding to this demand that they see evidence of on a daily basis. And why not? It means the schemes are likely to be better organised, better thought through and therefore more beneficial to those that participate than an ad hoc opportunistic placement.
most charities the alternative is not to re-advertise these positions as paid roles, but not to have them at all.
This is utter balderdash. The fact is many charities are riding on the notion that they wont be prosecuted. Lots say “oh if we had to pay then clearly we’d get someone older or more experienced” – but of course they wouldn’t alter the job itself – which means the job itself is currently worth payment, its just that they aren’t doing it because they don’t feel they need to. That’s not charitable, that’s despicable.
@Becky
I sympathise with the view that Charities may withdraw advertisements for Internships, and understand the position.
However, I cannot think of any “Charity” which does not have a Salary Budget, even any of the High Street Charities, and whereas those organisations may have relied on “Volunteers” in the past to help the operation of the organisation, the reality is that the Salary Budget does exist and is spread amongst Senior Executives. Even the Citizens Advice Bureau recruit about 80% of Volunteers amongst staff, despite maintaining a Salary Budget for its Senior Executives.
If your passionate about getting into a career you will enjoy, in these financial times volunteering is essential!
I left a well paid career (but not enjoyable) to go back to university, then after graduating had to do the voluntary bit to get the relevant skills and qualifications to get the job I have now (with the National Trust).
I volunteered various roles for around 1 year (including an unpaid internship type role), basically living off nothing, but i enjoyed every minute of it. Its how it is done in the conservation sector for which I am in now. Many more sectors are going this way and because its an employers market, they can pick and choose more, its a dog eat dog world, and they are going to take someone who has given there time up for free to gain the experience over a graduate who just thinks they deserve a job because they have been through uni/masters ect.
People need to accept this, but also universities need to accept this and take a bit more responsibility by actively pushing or integrating on-job experience with the degree.
Overall I have now worked for 2 charities, Wildlife Trust and National Trust, they are not greedy, they are bloody hard off! But they have been the most enjoyable working years of my life and well worth the year volunteering!
Interesting so many views on the ‘rich’ selfish charities, charities with budgets to burn on staff but choosing to only give it to the fat cats at the top……. and yet really what’s being said is I’ll only get involved if you’ll pay me.
I don’t agree with ‘internships’ – have never understood them, and has always surprised me that people do them. I do however agree with volunteering and contrary to views above the vast majority of charities depend absolutely on volunteers. Go to any National Trust venue and it will be made up of volunteers of all ages, giving their time and expertise for free.
If you don’t want to give your time for free….. then DON’T – perfectly simple!
On the other hand if you find a charity that does something you strongly believe in, and if you give your time and expertise to them freely, and if you’re lucky enough to get a job as a result, then well done to you. But don’t waste time standing on the sideline sniping – just move along and put your efforts into finding paid work elsewhere.
I am afraid that many of the above commenters appear to have missed Tanya’s point, being that the National Trust is simultaneously spending thousands of pounds on advertising and asking people to work for them for nothing, and not “volunteering” – working in a historic building or landscape, doing something enjoyable – but sitting behind a desk doing paperwork. Anyone who thinks that the NT is an organisation that uses the money it has wisely would do well to live in one of the more far-flung regions of its empire and see the waste and idleness that is supported by them. There is no way the NT can’t afford to pay these graduates, it’s just cheaper for them not to. They like to portray a cuddly, touchy-feely persona, but have any business dealings with them and you’ll find they are hard as nails.
I have worked for the National Trust in two seasonal jobs. I have found them to be arrogant and unapproachable. They offer to pay expenses and then refuse to pay. It would be easier to plan a major bank robbery than get money out of them. If you are not White, male, or have middle class parents or are not Oxbridge gradulates you will be treated like SHIT. Particularly, if you come from an ethnic minority you are destined for only the most menial cleaning and gardening roles. Definitely NOT recommended. Learn from my experience please!!!!
@Bayard – it is you that has missed the point. Begin by considering what volunteering is – its certainly not the narrow definition you suggest, and it can include paperwork – in fact I’ll suggest that’s one of the most significant volunteering roles undertaken in this country.
Just because they ‘could’ pay does that mean they should? Surely that would then be an unnecessary waste of resources – why pay if people are willing to do it for free? Which takes me back to my original point – if you don’t like it…… don’t do it!!!
@manamoopa
“If you don’t like it, don’t do it” solved nothing and is probably the single greatest contributor to the growth of this kind of work.
Its the arbitrary way in which ‘volunteering’ is decided, you don’t see the CEO’s or higher positions deciding that they’ll do their paperwork as a freebie, or defining their entire role as voluntary.
“Just because they ‘could’ pay does that mean they should?” – yes if its legally defined as work ( and there is a legal definition under the terms of the National Minimum Wage Act” and yes also because charities have a legal duty to act for the PUBLIC BENEFIT and not the PUBLIC DISBENEFIT.
Charities are not above scrutiny or accountability.
Actually the decision not to do something is still a decision and in fact you may find (if you think hard enough) that actually it’s solved rather a lot!
Do you really think they’d survive if everyone decided not to volunteer?!
I am a CEO and I can tell you that I do considerably more than paperwork for free. I do it because I believe in and enjoy what I’m doing and I’m far from alone.
I never suggested that charities are not above scrutiny – your suggestion that providing opportunities for young people to gain experience is not for public benefit is however nonsense.
Nobody is being forced to do these things – they have a choice. I’m completely against ‘internships’ and similar – however where there are people WILLING to undertake roles freely and where they are capable that has to be the first option for most charities.
I ‘could’ pay people to do certain aspects of our work – I “should not’ because that is money that can be better used in other ways toward our charitable objects.
@ manamoopa
You will find that the NMW Law does not allow the employer or charity any leeway on whether they should or could pay, it is very clear where payment must be made charity or not. There really is no difference between charitable exploitation (whether naively or deliberately) and the X Factor example at the top of the front page.
More and more charities are going to be caught out and forced to pay, this and the Pay & Work Rights website serves as a timely reminder for charities to get their houses in order.
BTW – the public interest test is subject to the current climate, the mood towards charities is changing – just see the bad press that the Tomorrow’s People charity got on the Jubilee weekend.
@Manamoopa it’s not as simple as don’t do it if you don’t like it! If other people are doing unpaid roles and you don’t then they’ve got the advantage over you when going for paid roles. Also, there will be less paid jobs around if companies/charities just get one intern after another in to work for free instead of creating a paid role. Entry level jobs are fast disappearing, with most positions demanding experience-how is that a choice to work for free when you stand little chance of a paid job if you don’t so it?!
@Derrick The minimum wage applies to employees, not volunteers.
@Caitlyn There are many ways to gain and demonstrate experience – find one that suits you.
@ manamoopa,
I agree the NMW doesn’t apply to volunteers, that’s why so many organisations – charities included are stretching the definition to include anyone. Just because an employer or charity calls someone a volunteer it doesn’t actually mean that they are one.
“An individual’s entitlement to the NMW – and your liability to pay them – does not depend on their job title but on the contract or arrangement you have with them. For further guidance on workers who are entitled to the NMW, see the page in this guide on national minimum wage worker checklist. If in doubt, please call the Pay and Work Rights Helpline on Tel 0800 917 2368 for free, confidential advice.”
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1096704728&r.i=1096704592&r.l1=1073858787&r.l2=1081657912&r.l3=1096697581&r.s=m&r.t=RESOURCES&type=RESOURCES
National Trust appears to be falling into the gutter along with everyone else. They took my membership a month early and when I complained and asked for a refund they only gave me back a proportion. On telephoning I was subjected to rudness from their call-centre which sounded – from the background noise – like a fishmarket.
@ Terry -:Look on the positive site, its probably a grade II listed fish market – supported by the state via English Heritage.
Just stumbled upon this thread which has made interesting reading. I have worked in museums for many years and I know that large corporate charities like the National Trust have traditionally relied very heavily on volunteers in order to keep on top of necessary work and to be able to open places to visitors, whether out in the countryside and gardens or inside their properties. Many of their individual properties have ti run themselves with a small paid staff and are pretty strapped for cash. Likewise anyone wishing to enter the heritage sector whether historic properties or museums will know that the only way to get into this kind of work is by volunteering/unpaid work placements. Organisations like the NT have spotted that there are more and more graduates looking to gain experience and at the same time there are fewer paid jobs around. Perhaps they have gone a little too far in structuring their internships in the way you describe but I imagine they have spotted a need and are trying to respond to demand for placements and fulfill several of their own objectives at the same time. It’s a sad sign of the times that there is competition even for unpaid work, but in such a difficult climate at least a properly structured internship is a positive way forward. I had to volunteer in museums myself thirty-odd years ago, having graduated and during a previous recession under Thatcher unable to even get a job in a shop-there was nothing available. The experience I got doing voluntary work helped me to get a temporary paid job and from there I was able to get on to a vocational postgrad course, and eventually into my first paid job. While I don’t entirely agree with ‘exploiting’ recent graduates in this way at least it is a genuine opportunity which otherwise would not have existed. The National Trust is a modern organisation and like so many others seeks to be inclusive and to offer equal opportunities to all. Whether this happens in practice is another matter. We live near a National Trust estate but somehow I doubt that our son will want to work there for nothing. Better to go into the family business if there is one, at least you are truly sharing the fruits of your labour. What is worrying about a lot of heritage organisations and museums these days is that they are moving beyond recruiting volunteers as of old and beginning to take on unpaid workers to do previously specialist paid jobs which professional people used to train for…I have seen this happen in the library service too. There are so many cuts at the moment, museums are either closing their doors completely or sacking most of the staff. My own post, a permanent job, is only secure now for three years unless more outside funding can be found. The way things are going there will be no paid jobs in this sector in the future, either for existing employees or graduates looking to move into this area. This lack of a future seems to me to be a greater threat than the growth of unpaid internships. At least the National Trust seem to be trying to be creative in making an opportunity for graduates to gain valuable on the job experience for a time in the future when things might just become better. Their motivations are probably good, but it does worry me that more and more charities of their ilk will be run and operated by volunteers in the future…One burning question-how do the National Trust get away with using the term internship? The organisation I work for is very clear that we cannot use the term as it implies payment. We have to say volunteer placement or work experience to avoid confusion.
It isn’t just Charities as well but Government thinktanks registered as Charities, like Faith Matters for example, that appear to take advantage of qualified individuals for unpaid work in order to conduct research that would normally attract a fairly reasonable salary if in an academic or private sector setting. The only person who seems to make a profit in these types of ventures are the Senior Management Team (CEO’s and such like). It is Cameron’s Britain “We are all in it together” (not).
Your choice you don’t like it- don’t apply go work else where!
Rich – your approach solves nothing. Sticking your head in the sand.
Think yourself luckey that you have youth on your side. I have worked for three NT sites and my wife was a catering manager for over 10 years for the NT. Current policy appears to be if you are over 40 and have long service – then you are to be hounded out of your job OR under “restructuring” apply for a post you have held for years and THEN this post lasts for a two year contract. – NASTY!
NOT VERY CHARITABLE.
We thourght that this was just a policy in our region, but have contacted other regions and have found the same cull is in progress throughout the organisation! NT – AVOID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!