SOME GRADUATES’ APPROACHES ARE “APPALLING,” BOSS TELLS GRADUATE FOG
You spent hours on your application – and were gutted when you never heard back. What went wrong? Lorraine Emmett, Managing Director of PR company Emmett & Smith Ltd explains what makes her hit the ‘delete’ button. Does any of this sound familiar – or is Lorraine asking too much from her young applicants?
“Returning to work after two weeks in foreign climes, tanned and relaxed, it is with some humour that I regard our ‘info@…’ inbox full of job applications from graduates and potential interns who think they want a career in PR. This is an improvement because for most of the year it’s with open-mouthed disbelief and some sadness that I review and delete so many approaches.
“We are one of the many companies that does not respond to every applicant. This is because we get dozens of emails every day and unfortunately the vast majority are very badly composed. Others are simply appalling. Obviously if we have a role and someone looks like they have potential we will make contact. Where an applicant is impressive in their correspondence, but we have no role at that time, we will send an encouraging email.
“Interestingly, on the few occasions we have provided constructive criticism to some particularly awful emails, the response from the applicant has been tantamount to an online tantrum. One girl actually phoned up to complain to my ‘boss’ about the way she had been treated. Excellent research and observations skills demonstrated by her – she hadn’t noted that I was the Managing Director, even though my surname is actually part of our company name!
“PR is about educating, influencing and persuading – both verbally and in writing. Therefore being able to construct a grammatically correct sentence with words that are spelt correctly and properly punctuated is fundamental. The easiest way to deal with this is to use Spellcheck and always get someone to check your work. You don’t want spelling errors and poor punctuation to mark you as a least suitable candidate at the first hurdle.
“In order to educate, influence and persuade we have to find the right press contacts and engage them. An email that is addressed to ‘Dear to whom it may concern’ or ‘Dear Sir/Madam’ doesn’t really demonstrate much initiative, does it? It can also appear a little rude. If you want someone to invest their time and money in training you, it’s worth finding out their name and addressing them correctly. Spelling the name of the company correctly should be a given, but so many applicants manage to get it wrong.
“To engage the media, PR companies need to present ideas in a way that stands out, provokes further thought and secures a positive response. When you apply for a job, you are asking for similar consideration – and using bizarre fonts of varying size and colours is not the way to create that impression. (In fact, this just looks like rather childish, attention-seeking behaviour!).
“However, the applicant that provided me with a critique of various case studies displayed on our website – with the caveat that it was just in their ‘inexperienced opinion’ (polite and clever) – did indeed get invited in for an interview. Their application demonstrated intelligence, self-awareness and initiative – as well as a genuine interest in my business. We still work together.
“Now, bearing in mind that Emmett & Smith is a b2b [business to business] PR company and our clients include global technology companies, academic institutions and charitable trusts, who can spot the problem with the statement: ‘I like organising parties and I have always wanted to work in Fashion PR?’ I’m afraid it’s all about knowing your audience and engaging them in a way that is appropriate and relevant.
“Finally, personal email addresses can say an awful lot about a person – what’s important to them, the way they see themselves and the way they conduct themselves. So if your email is something like ‘HotPartyPal268@…’ and you are seeking a job in corporate PR consultancy – or any professional workplace, for that matter – it may just be worth setting up a separate, less colourful address!
“It’s going to be a tough summer for many graduates and, whether or not your chosen career is PR, I sincerely wish you all the very best of luck in finding work.”
*ARE EMPLOYERS ASKING TOO MUCH?
Or are Lorraine’s criticisms fair? How much time do you put into your job applications? Do you tailor your CV and covering letter for every job, or do you ever use a ‘scattergun’ approach to save time?
Don’t forget to follow @GraduateFog on Twitter!
HR are all jobsworths.
@Clare
Do you have any links that could you share on requirements or ways to get work in other countries? I have looked into New Zealand though I had not consisted the BRIC countries, what is your experience of the requirements?
I still think it’s appalling that any company should neglect to reply to people who apply to them for work. It’s just courteous, the quality of the application notwithstanding. If companies like the BBC can send out a formula reply and rejection, with the number of applicants they attract, then it’s certainly simple for a small PR company.
For the record, you should not be turning down applicants who have written to “Sir/Madam”. Often it is not clear from job ads who at the company will be receiving and reviewing the application, or even if the email address provided is just an outside recruiter. Furthermore “Dear Sir/Madam” is an acceptable form of address for a letter (combined with “yours faithfully”) to the extent that this is what is taught in schools.
Frankly, I think you do ask too much of your applicants, and you should try and put yourself in their positions – often having to send off ten or twenty applications in a week, most of which go to companies like yours that don’t even bother to respond.
It’s disheartening, and horrible, and is it so surprising that one or two of these applications should display all the signs of someone who’s tired and disgusted by the whole process??
My recommendation is this: fine, don’t send replies to those who clearly haven’t made an effort. But to those who have made even a modicum, reply, and commiserate. It can make a jobseeker’s day even to receive a polite rejection. It is always deeply depressing to be ignored.
Wow! This thread has some most enlightening comments. Basically, any job seeker would do extremely well to take on board Neil’s comments rather than oppose them.
This then brings me on to the number 1 aspect of job hunting: Attitude. It’s rarely (or never) added to the guide’s to get a job, but it’s the most most important. Rather like the base block of a pyramid.
If you read enough CV’s, you can spot the attitude right off through a whole host of indicators. Grammar, spelling, email address, structure, format and approach to name a few. Frankly, there are loads of employers out there (provided you are not too niche) who are desperate for quality applicants but they just don’t get them.
Getting a job is easy – if you know how to do it. I’ve taught an ex-crack head (still on licence) to get a £35k pa job with a CRB pre-employment check and an 18 year old who seems to pick up £25k pa jobs like confetti. Both are non-grads and they applied for grad jobs.
Getting a job is a sales process, follow the process & you get a job. If you want to see the quality of applicants you are up against, invest £75 and put your own advert up on a job site and see what level of response you get. I guarantee you’ll be amazed (and potentially arrested as you’re not allowed to do that sort of thing). Alternatively, invest another £500-£1000 to do a course on getting a job.
@Nick Really? My CV has been adjusted by a professional. Most jobs ask for application forms, not CVs, which is more work-but I still think I fill them out to a reasonable standard. I’m a decent writer so I don’t think that my presentation is the problem. I have had years out of work though, even though I’ve been volunteering, which I think goes against me. Did this “crack head” have a big gap on his CV?
“Getting a job is easy – if you know how to do it.”
Just…no. You’re spouting rubbish. My CV is immaculate. I spend a considerable time on my cover letters. I am an Oxbridge graduate. What I don’t have is experience, of anything but farm work and temping in a warehouse (I’ve worked since I was 14).
And there’s the kicker: the feedback I get when employers can be bothered to give it comes down to either “you’re too qualified and won’t stay in the job” or “you don’t have any experience.”
Given the jobs I’m applying for are all minimum wage admin positions, where all that is needed is a professional manner and a working knowledge of Excel, the problem is that employers expect too much – and are more willing to employ those who have been made redundant later in life than graduates who haven’t yet been employed.
We are polite, qualified, professional and eager. The jobs simply do not exist, and where they do, the job market allows employers to be extremely picky.
@Caitlyn: Not really sure what you are expressing surprise at. People get all excited about their CV having to be “brilliant.” I get asked, “Is my CV any good?” Frankly, I can’t answer that until I’ve seen what job they’ve applied for, researched the industry and industry sub-sector. I recommend people prepare their interview before tailoring their CV/application for a job. What you put in a CV comes way down the process but it’s usually where most people start.
As for your CV gaps, it’s highly likely it goes against you unless your voluntary work is credible, supports the skills required in the new role & is described correctly. When you’ve got consistent gaps on a CV, an employer tends to think there are some underlying medical issues (back injury, depression), potentially a stay in a police hotel or you are not as good as you are making yourself out to be. After all, if you were THAT good, you wouldn’t be unemployed.
As for the EX-substance abuser (with an aggravated burglary conviction), of course he didn’t have a two year gap on his CV. He was travelling to exotic locations across the world which enhanced his cultural understanding & reinforced his desire to add value to a company was aligned to his own values. Futhermore, the fact that he had already been travelling gave them confidence that he was committed to a career & wouldn’t be disappearing.
You see a paperboy, I see a pro-active self-starter working in logistics, in the premium printed media industry, working to resolute deadlines with high level of customer service.
@Karl. Please don’t say I’m spouting rubbish. I’m sat here giving you advice that I know works. Both from being an employer and from helping people get jobs.
You display some key attributes for failure. #1 The jobs simply do not exist – they do, there are ’000′s of jobs available at any given point in time, even in sectors where the recession is worst due to retirement, deaths, people leaving, dismissals. You my friend, are looking in the wrong places.
#2 The old, “I don’t have enough experience.” Well get this, I ask people why they don’t think they’ve got a job and the younger ones tell me it’s because they don’t have any experience, and the older ones (with experience) tell me it’s because the employers only want young people with no experience.
I’m guessing your CV is not consistent with the jobs you are applying for. If you are applying for minimum wage jobs & I can see a high level of academic achievement, I’m thinking: “I only want someone to replace Gladys/Derek – I don’t need a graduate, especially Oxbridge, because I will be embarrassed that the work will be beneath them, they will get bored or they will leave when something better comes along.”
You are making the same mistake that Gladys/Derek would be making in applying for Oxbridge graduate jobs. You CV isn’t consistent with the job that you are applying for.
Tough crowd in here.
@Nick my volunteer work is good quality and related to the area I want to get a paid role in. I did suffer several years of depression. Apart from volunteering now to prove I’m able to work I don’t see how I can change that-unless I pretend I was travelling-but that’s a risky strategy since you could get asked lots of questions about it and slip up. Karl’s problem is a real one: there are not enough graduate roles so some people have to go for roles that they are overqualified for- which they don’t get for that reason. You can get trapped between not being desirable enough for a graduate role and too desirable for a basic one. It happened to me too. I didn’t want a graduate role as they seemed too competitive and stressful which wouldn’t have suited me.
@Caitlyn You need a job plan or map. I’m guessing you know what job you would like so you’ve got to work out the route to it back from there. It may mean that you enter a company at a level or department away from your ultimate target. Your network will be key to getting in somewhere. If you don’t have a network in that industry, you need a plan to put yourself in places where you can develop a network.
As for your CV gaps, it depends what they look like but it’s not too difficult to lose things like that and enhance the CV. Strictly speaking, you could get into bother doing that but you can manage the risk by avoiding certain sectors/jobs/companies. Most firms tend to be bothered about how you do the job and what’s on your CV becomes a forgotten memory.
And Karl’s problem is a very real one: he can see it when he looks in a mirror. There are not enough graduate roles???? He only needs to get one role and I’m sure there are more than that. Of all the grads on here, probably 90% would swap their degree certificate for his.
Why on earth an Oxbridge graduate is applying for minimum wage jobs is beyond me – except for the fact that, in almost every single case, there’s a barrier to employment or something going on in the background that Karl has elected to omit.
@Nick the graduate jobs I’m applying for are also telling me I don’t have enough experience (again, when they bother to reply at all). Unless I want to be a “recruitment consultant” then there really are very few in the first place – one company I applied to work for recently was kind enough to send out a mass-email notifying applicants of their failure, but also got in touch with me personally to praise my CV and tell me that I was one of over 200 Oxbridge grads applying.
My chosen field – the media – is extremely competitive. In the mean time, I need to pay the rent and buy food. Hence the min-wage applications. I’ve been on JSA since last August and I’m getting increasingly frustrated with having to live off the state, let alone the way potential employers treat me.
There is nothing I have “elected to omit”. There are no gaps on my CV. I have a 2.1 and copious volunteer experience. References from an (unpaid) internship in the autumn. No criminal record. No history of serious illness (not that it should matter if there was – are people who’ve been ill doomed never to work?).
I’m also not the only person I know from my course or college in this position. I think you may just be a little out of touch with how it is to be a grad in the current climate, when a little over 50% of us are still living at home a year after graduating.
@Caitlyn: I was referring to Karl regarding omissions & Oxbridge etc… I can’t advise you on here, there are many aspects to getting a job, I’m just touching on some of them.
As for being “out of touch.” That made me chuckle. Perhaps I am, it’s around 20 years since I was a grad. But the funny thing, is that those grads in my day are the ones who got those grad jobs 20 years ago, worked their way up in companies and are the very people sat across the desk from you at interview deciding your future. This is where a lot of people go wrong, it’s not about you, it’s about me – because I decide who gets the job or not. You have to be in touch with me, not the other way round. I don’t care for how a grad is feeling, I love the fact it’s tough because I’ll get grads in front of me hungry for an opportunity and prepared to go above and beyond.
You understand media and can probably do that very well. I couldn’t, I don’t understand it or have the skill. But I could learn and be good.
It seems you don’t understand how to get a job because no one has shown you how to do it correctly. You could learn and be really good at it.
Nothing in life is difficult, as long as you know how to do it.
N.b. Read that last one wrong – I thought I was responding to Caitlyn’s response not Karl. Apologies both.
No, Nick, the difference between your day and mine is that now there are many more graduates, and many fewer jobs. The days of grads walking straight into work are behind us, and I think you’d have just as difficult a time as I am, were you in my shoes now. Unless, of course, you were one of the lucky few who could afford to take unpaid summer internships, had family connections, or got a first class degree…
The fact that you don’t care about the grads’ feelings says an awful lot – and is exactly what I’m criticising. Just because the employer now has the upper hand, does not mean that they have free license to treat the choice of applicants like a choice between sandwiches at lunch time, precisely *because* we have feelings.
Politeness does not just exist as a secret code you have to learn to pass an obscure test on the way into the jobs: it exists, and is assessed, because the way you treat people matters. When a double standard is applied, something is wrong.
Karl, I do not have the emotional capacity to have feelings for or care about the 300 or so applicants I get each month. But if you feel that strongly about it, experience tells me that’s going to come across in your application or your interview. And I’m going to be concerned about that – all day long. And you won’t get the job either.
You are confusing how you think the job process should work with how it actually does. Sit down for this one: I treat the choice of applicants just like sandwiches. I choose the one that I think will satisfy my needs based on how I feel at the time. Whether you like it, or agree with it, that’s what happens. As the author of this article says in the first place.
Yep there’s more grads now. I guess there are fewer jobs although opportunities outside of the UK were far less prevalent or possible in my day. There was a recession when I left uni, many of my friends stayed on for masters etc…. because of that. I do not have a wealthy back ground & my accent & connections were more suited to employment down a mine in Yorkshire. I got a poor degree from an average uni. I had a great attitude and belief though. See my original post.
You can get a job Karl, but you might need to adjust your outlook on life a little, or perhaps just suspend it until you’ve got that first job. Don’t leave it too long though, it will get more difficult the longer you are unemployed.
As you are on JSA, your JCP “may” assist you with paying for a training course specific to your intended job.
I’m continually stunned by the lack of empathy shown by employers these days… I know business owners have to make decisions somehow and they may not have the time and resources to reply to each applicant personally but geez. It’s not naive to expect a little compassion from other human beings, business owners or not.
I figure that this should be my last comment on this thread & I’ll go the same way as Neil & CD of trying to offer real life, credible experience but not really get through.
So I’ll put it this way. Those empathy/politeness warriors….let’s assume you attain that position of responsibility that you seek. You are managing a team with a payroll budget of £200k pa and would like to honour them with a 2% pay rise. Responding to unsuccessful applicants will cost approx £12k pa (using @Neil’s example) excluding any litigation should they deem your response discriminatory (justified or not). Litigation will be charged at £3k per case.
You MUST meet your income budget of £500k pa from your payroll budget of £200k or the company will be forced to adopt austerity measures which may or may not include redundancies.
In addition, our long standing support of Cancer Research as part of our ethical policy has been budgeted at £2k however they have offered to upgrade us to a premium partner for £4k which will bring branding benefits.
So for all those who oppose the lack of empathy, compassion and politeness in business, tell me what you would do and how you would get your team behind your decision. I accept, even I might learn something here.
What would I do? I’d send a mass email to all applicants who didn’t get throught saying “Thank you for your application. On this occasion you have been unsuccesful. We regret we cannot provide individual feedback due to the volume of applications, but wish you luck in your job search.”
You know, like some companies (large and small) actually do. If it can be afforded both at the top end (Channel 4, BBC, etc.) and at the bottom (a small business owner) then it’s certainly within the powers of any other employer or HR exec unless they are rude, incompetent or lazy.
That does not cost £12k. That would barely cost £12. Nor can it be classed as discriminatory. We aren’t expecting a personal two page essay on how we can improve our CVs – we’re talking common courtesy.
With that passion, you should work in HR Karl, you’d be wasted in media.
Karl,
You’re actually suggesting a machine emailing you the same thing as everyone else soothes your tender heart?
Even coming from the original “polite” and “moral” responsibilities of employers angle of this discussion, that suggestion is utterly preposterous.
Please keep going. Now you seem to have understood that this stuff costs money, I’m looking forward to hearing your £12 solution that actually solves the problem. I can’t believe an automated rejection email makes anyone feel better, but I am prepared to consider that you personally would find this soothing.
I reread my posts to this thread, and one thing I’d like to add that I don’t think I made clear is that I would love to send individual rejection letters to all candidates. I’m a polite and nice person. Sadly my time is better spent making products and thus money for the company. If I did the former instead of the latter, then I’d be looking for another job.
@Nick Thanks for your kind comments. I left this thread because I found it pretty insulting that I am here now recruiting, and providing real good honest helpful insight into why it is the way it is, but there are several responses along the lines of “well we don’t know anything but we know better than you”. Well that’s fine, but they don’t!
Spoken like a true gentleman. Poor little me, and my gay feelings, and my total naivety, how dare I waste your time and money?
YES! Any response is what we want! Ask anyone seeking employment – anyone at all. Would we rather fire applications off into the blue for weeks and months, and never even get any acknowledgement? Or would we rather have an automatic message informing us that we were unsuccessful?
This is the 21st century, you don’t have to write a letter by hand, and glue down the flaps on every envelope, you just copy and paste and hit “send to all”. I could do it for you right now if I was provided with a list of applicants’ emails (hint: you’ll find these on the top of the CV).
The fact that employers won’t even make that small effort – half an hour’s work, if that, at no cost beyond wages – is not a sign of efficiency, it is a sign of complacency, of a snooty, holier-than-thou attitude precisely like the one you’re exhibiting.
This attitude is exactly what I’m talking about. That’s exactly what I’m angry about. Because you evidently think you’re so much better than us. That is exactly what refusal to acknowledge applications implies.
Look at it as an investment if you like: PR. Consumers tend to prefer companies with a human face, and are likely to view companies (particularly local companies) in a much more negative light when they do not respond to applications. And you’ll attract more qualified applicants if they feel they’re treated fairly.
@Karl
Given your emotional response, in which fabricate a whole load of stuff I haven’t said, and also in which you seem to defend receiving automatic emails as being evocative of a company caring about you (they don’t), and also considering I’ve been really quite constructive and non-romantic about this whole thing, let me bow out again, but first I’d like to set the record straight:
I’ve not once stated or implied I’m better than you. I’ve remained utterly objective in the face of some quite ludicrously romantic sentiment.
You will find that your emotional and romantic approach to professional life is a considerable hindrance, but I suspect you will continue to feel that the world is broken and is just not fair. You do not have my sympathy. You are angry at a world that will not change to obey your invented standards and actually will go on exactly as has been described in this thread.
Good luck with your media career. I have friends involved in that stuff, and let me tell you, it’s far more snide and political and unpleasant than anything I’ve been involved in. Prepare to be repeatedly terribly upset by nasty people.
Your final paragraph made me laugh out loud at how out of touch with reality it is. When did you last hear “Don’t apply to that company, they don’t write back to you if you don’t get the job.”?! What complete nonsense. An investment has returns, otherwise it’s a cost. My return is that -hang on- customers will shop with me because I spend money on unsuitable recruits?! I think you need to think again.
Anyway, I sincerely wish you good luck. With the sensibilities and objectivity (or lack thereof) you’ve presented here, I think you’re in for a tough time expectation-wise, whichever profession you enter. Deadlines, dependencies, pressure, money, all lead to some jolly appalling rudeness in pretty much all workplaces apt for graduates.
I’ll say again: that kind of reply would cost zero – zilch. Unless your company hasn’t discovered the internet, it’s ridiculously simple even if you have a thousand applications. Hell, farm it out to an intern like me if you want. But the admittance that working life is full of appalling rudeness is no excuse for condoning it. Manners cost nothing, as the saying goes. And the returns – material or immaterial – are just as great and noble as that token charity donation you mentioned (where’s the return on that?).
It’s less a case of “don’t apply to that company, they don’t reply” than “you should apply to this company, they seem like a nice place to work”. And that counts for something when you’re competing for graduates.
If you were, of course, which you’re not – supply now exceeds demand.
I’m under no illusions, Nick, about what the world of work is like, you see. That doesn’t mean I have to like it, or approve of it, let alone be quiet and let attempts to defend it as pragmatic go unchallenged.
You are evidently angry that you’re wrong and have been called out on it. Really – I don’t think it’s so mucn to ask that applications be acknowledged, do you?
P.S, here’s a guide: 1. Extract emails from applications as they arrive. There are programmes that will do this and online applications will enter all the info into a handy database. 2. Copy and paste this list – excluding succesful applicants – into the “to” box of your email (or a ‘no reply’ account). 3. Write one email. 4. Send it.
It is not rocket science. It can all be automated. And no, automating it does not detract from the effort you have made to consider the applicants’ feelings at all.
@Karl
So you’re genuinely suggesting that an impersonal automated email from a computer soothes your aching heart. Man, you’re weird.
I don’t think it’s weird at all. Applying for jobs day in day out is hard and thankless work. Some acknowledgement of your efforts will go appreciated even if it’s only an automated response.
When I don’t get a reply it usually makes me think the job ad was fake. Usually the case with the job centre and most a**hole employers.
Neil, it’s not weird at all: do your research. Ridicule and condescension are not substitutes for argument, they just make you look ever more miserly and unpleasant.
Stick to your arguments from economy, but never, ever insult the feelings and humanity of your employees or applicants. It really does not make me like you any more.
And to simplify further: YES. Employers MAKING AN EFFORT is appreciated. Any effort.
Token gestures make the world go round.
Karl,
While I’m almost impressed by your evidence-free argument in the face of at least two people who have quoted actual facts from their experience to you, it doesn’t make for a robust discussion. I’m still waiting for some numbers from you.
You also persist in maintaining I’m miserly and unpleasant. I hope you don’t level that assessment at others through life who give you actual facts from actual business and constructive advice, people who have the integrity to be honest with you.
Unquantifiable romantic statements like “token gestures make the world go round” are incompatible with any kind of business. If you ever run your own business you will discover this.
I’ve given you the numbers: zero pounds. It is free. I can (and do) routinely send out mass emails to large groups of people who have handed me their email addresses. It costs me nothing and takes half an hour or less. So the total cost would be half an hour’s wages and whatever your electric bill is. Maybe half an hour’s training if you hired an HR manager who isn’t good with computers.
You simply haven’t tried it, because you can’t be bothered.
Since my last post I regret to inform you all that Karl’s theories have caused the universe to crack resulting in no calculators working. Microsoft will be putting out an emergency update for Excel so that all management accounts will have an “Alchemy” button which just shaves a bit off your payroll line. As troubling as this may sound, my esteemed friend Professor Hawkins suspects that Karl may have discovered an entirely new branch of mathematics. Which, if we can just point it at the debt crisis will mean that global debt is wiped out, boom time returns forever and everyone can have a graduate job that wants one by Friday of next week.
Critically, whilst you will still have to apply, all unsuccessful candidates will receive a full 360 degree feedback session & counselling if they want it. As decreed by the new law to be put before the Commons when they reconvene. This will be presented as the Copy & Paste Email Law and will be of no additional cost to business provided your financial director adopts the Karl Evans method of accounting.
I would guess that our work is done on this thread now however I’ve discovered some new threads of World Peace, perpetual motion & “Pay it Forward.” I’d like to put the same team on these threads as were so successful on this one, provided everyone can juggle their new, high-powered jobs with a bit of pro-bono work.
Who’s with me? Anyone? Anyone?
Oh, please, tell me where this costs you any money. Go on, ennumerate exactly where the costs come in – because some companies do do this (including the one I mentioned that attracted close to a thousand applicants overall). Rather than resorting to ridicule and sarcasm.
That didn’t take long.
Karl, I thought the thread was getting a little heavy so I decided to inject a little humour (or ridicule & sarcasm depending on your view). Admittedly, it was at your expense so I apologise for any offence caused.
As for the rest of it all, I think everyone agrees that responding to all applicants is excellent practice. Quality feedback is the Holy Grail. I guess my generation haven’t put any value on such a noble cause but, if this thread is anything to go by, there’s a groundswell of opinion demanding it.
You’ve got your opinion, I’ve got mine. Despite our best efforts, I can’t see us finding any common ground on this but that doesn’t matter. It’s for your generation to influence management thinking to show greater empathy & compassion. Employee’s rights have come a very, very long way in the last 15-20 years, I hope I’ll look forward to my last decade of employment to see how you shape it further.
You seem quite passionate about things being right & just. May be that’s your frustration – you’re a media guy trapped in a human rights man’s body.
“Continuous effort, not strength or intelligence, is the key to unlocking our potential.” Liane Cardes
I hope you find your path Karl.
Nick
And finally:
And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its shams, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy. (Desiderata)
Being unemployed and bored, I have a lot of time on my hands (reminds me of when I was revising for my GCSEs).
You’re right: there is a groundswell of support for gestures like this, which I think can be put down both to the abnormally high unemployment rates among graduates, and to the fact that people of our generation are aware of quite how little effort such gestures now cost compared to when the apparent tradition of ignoring applicants probably began.
The low cost is not a matter of opinion, however, and I recommend you speak to your company’s IT people about the easiest way to incorporate this into your applications process. Informally if neccessary. It can really make an applicant’s day to get thanks even from a computer (such is the human mind) and if you consider yourself a nice person, it will make you feel good too.
You shouldn’t be bored. You should be seeking out opportunities to differentiate yourself from other applicants. You should be identifying companies you want to work for and become an authority on those companies and the people in them. Get to know people in those companies – again, not hard if you think about it. Engage yourself with those people/company making considered comments on their Facebook page or Twitter account. Try to stay off the subject of this thread though.
Idle hands make the devil’s work. Getting a job is a job.
Getting a job is a job. But it’s less satisfying than potato picking in my experience. For the record, I spent most of the day rehearsing a play so time is not entirely wasted (I partly manage the company, including the website and mailing lists, non negligible amounts of admin, direct, produce… etc. Of course this is unpaid and voluntary so doesn’t count as ‘experience’ I’ve found so far).
If it were a real job, of course, I’m only paid for 10 hours’ work a week… less time than I spend on applications and hunting. When I was interning I was earning a sixth of minimum wage for the hours I worked at a company that would face financial ruin had it no access to free labour (1 paid staff member, 2 apprentices, 30 interns). But that’s another argument..
Who says you have to say your “voluntary work” is voluntary? I’d be trying to consolidate all that voluntary & intern work and portray it as one paid role, or freelance at worst. You don’t have to lie, you just have to be selective about the words you use.
If you did all that work for free, for me – I wouldn’t be helping you to progress yourself either, because I’d end up having to do the stuff you do for free. And it does count as experience because you’ve been doing it.
You need a shot of confidence & a dash of learning how to market yourself. And maybe a slap round the face because you haven’t worked out that how you are going about things isn’t working, so you need to change tack.
@Karl,
“I partly manage the company, including the website and mailing lists, non negligible amounts of admin, direct, produce… etc.” is a massive amount of experience. Make sure it’s on your CV. Be prepared to be challenged on the details of what you actually do during the interview process (I.e. be prepared to back up every claim of skill earned, in other words be brutally honest with yourself first).
If I saw that sentence on a CV I’d be thinking (in management terms) self-starter, completer-finisher, motivated, takes responsibility. I would want to at least talk to you.
The kind of skills it takes to do what you’re claiming you do are exactly what’s needed generically across most businesses. A good recruiter will be all over it.
Look at it this way- the vast majority of graduate CVs DON’T have this extra stuff on them.
I once hired a guy because one line on his CV was “took two years off to realise a lifetime ambition of writing and releasing my own computer game.”. His CV was otherwise a bit bare and poor, but this one line which I’m convinced many recruiters had missed led me to find out he’d run his own business solely and actually created and marketed his own product from scratch to fulfil his ambition. He didn’t perceive these skills as a big deal, but because he’d done almost everything there is to do in a business, he could do the same in our business. He could turn his hand to anything, and the challenge of managing him was then keeping him interested, but that’s another story. He was a great hire.
Neil.
@Karl (if you are still out there).
I recently advertised a post & to somewhat test what I already knew, I offered feedback to those who wanted it. The following is the list of pain & shame (just over 100 applications):
98% wanted feedback (or thought they did – lol)
6% tailored their application to the role
1 applicant referenced language in the advert & website to his skills
3% would have got an interview although all of those had either poor CV or cover letter
5% had acceptable CV’s either by content or aesthetics
90% (of the ones I had time to check) had negative digital footprints
18% did not even bother with a cover letter
22% had a non-professional photo on their email profile
32% did not even view the company website despite being asked to do so
6 people even responded to a question asking if they’d checked the website with a “no.”
56% were “graduates”
75% of the graduates seemed to think their degree was the be all & end all (it isn’t!)
78% listed duties as opposed to achievements in their prior roles
It took on average 11 minutes to give some basic, credible feedback (over 18 hours of my time in one week & I’m now sleeping in the spare room until my wife is satisfied I have a better work-life balance).
The point is, or my point, is that 94% of applicants didn’t deserve a response. No effort, no imagination, no consistency.
This has been a particularly painful experience for me – it makes me angry that applicants can push utter sh1te under my nose and expect to get something from it – or moan they don’t get a response.
Everything (and more) that the author of this article says is spot on – I’ve evidenced that in detail.
I visited a northern university’s management school last week & their careers department are pretty clued up. Not perfect, but good. How many graduates on here are still engaged with their careers department?
All the answers to a perfect application are out there, I could give you four twitter feeds to follow that would basically give you all the articles you’d ever need.
I re-iterate, getting a job is easy, but 95% of people just don’t apply the required effort. So neither should I.
@Nick (still there!)
I’m afraid you’ve kind of missed the point here. By a very wide margin.
Yes: if you offer individual feedback to every applicant, you’re going to die of stress if not waste your cash & resources.
But please note, however, that I did not ask for feedback. In fact I very carefully specified that your response would be wise to include a caveat to the effect that ‘as we have had so much interest in this position, we regret we are unable to offer individual feedback’.
I’m more interested to know how long it took you to write and send the original email (the one offering feedback) to every applicant. The non-personal response that I was actually talking about, thanking them for applying and informing them of their failure, for unspecified reasons.
If we ask for feedback, feel free to ignore us – it’s an unreasonable request.
My point is that EVERYONE deserves the effort of thanks, even if they’ve mailed you a turd. “They didn’t bother, so why should I?” is the worst argument in the world for ANYTHING. They didn’t make the effort because they are novices, presumably undeserving of your employment. You are a professional and ought to act like it.
Please pass on my apologies to your wife…
To reiterate: some kind of response is required. It absolutely need not be personal. Copy and paste what I wrote above if you need to:
“Thank you for your application. On this occasion you have been unsuccesful. We regret we cannot provide individual feedback due to the volume of applications, but wish you luck in your job search.”
This – not the other stuff you did – will not take 18 hours.
Having said that – by all means share the twitter feeds. They’ll be useful. I’ve just had a friend in recruiting look over my CV and she had plenty of constructive criticisms of the layout more than anything else, so it’s now ten times better…
Karl,
i) I’ll use that standard response if that’s ok? Let me know where to send the invoice
ii) My wife says, “At least someone cares.” I think she’s warming to you regardless of how much I try to put her off. I even blamed you for our marital difficulties but she’s having none of it.
iii) I’ve never been accused of being a professional in my entire career
iv) Start with Undercover Recruiter. They tweet a lot! Sift through what you need, about 75% is correct (for the UK market). Remember that when you get advice, especially in the “Top 6 reasons…..or Top 10 do not do’s” that there are usually a lot more things you need to consider.
InterviewIQ I tend to like also.
Jury’s out on @newcareerguru but some of his posts talk sense. He’s one of the only ones talking about the job loss tsunami that’s heading towards us.
It’s been emotional Karl, I for one, will miss our recruitment jousts.
This adds to the authors comments:
6 Reasons You Never Heard Back from the Recruiter http://bit.ly/P3cjUN
Now go forth & apply those graduate brains to educate yourselves in how to get meaningful employment. Be a job hunter, not a job seeker.
I think there are some important points above, but some of it seems a bit absurd.
If a company decides not to list a name to reply to the job to, surely they don’t want you ringing them up to find one out. I don’t see it as a test of worth, I see it that the person in particular doesn’t want to be bombarded with emails to their personal work account, which is quite understandable. I, like many others I’m sure apply for lots of jobs around trying to work to get money in and haven’t got the time to contact every job without a name listed.
I also too think it is an awful excuse not to reply to all applicants and not to look at every application. Sometimes you put ages into getting everything right for that application, so the thought that it doesn’t get looked at shows how despicable some companies are.