GRADUATE FOG ASKS THEIR HEAD OF PR ‘DO YOU GET PAID TO DO YOUR JOB?’
Graduate Fog is aware that picking fights with a charity is not a good look.
Especially one that’s as well-known (and well-loved) as Comic Relief.
But this website is all about discussion – however uncomfortable that might be.
Since Graduate Fog launched in April 2010, we have exposed unpaid internships at various private companies, both big and small. But we have not talked much about what is happening in the charity sector.
The only exception to this has been our coverage of the James Caan Foundation’s decision to hire unpaid interns, a story which is now one of Graduate Fog’s most read stories ever.
So here goes…
Comic Relief is currently advertising for a ‘broadcast intern’ to work at their head office for three months, paid expenses only. Here is the ad, which appears on Comic Relief’s own website:
Broadcast intern
Central London / Unpaid, reasonable travel expenses reimbursedIf you have an interest in broadcasting and experience of working in a busy office, you could be part of the team delivering the film content for Red Nose Day 2011!
Working full time from January to March 2011, you’ll get involved in all aspects of working on a high profile campaign for a well-known brand. From supporting our video production (acting as a runner, assisting on film shoots, sourcing props) to monitoring relevant broadcasts and handling admin, you’ll be at the heart of the production of one of the best-known events in the UK.
Bring us your passion for broadcasting and proven MS Office, organisational and communication skills and we’ll provide a CV-enhancing opportunity that will give you a great insight into the world of TV and video production.
There follows a detailed role description which is too long to include here in full, but includes these tasks:
- Copy existing videos and making compilation DVDs for staff, outside parties, members of the public
- Reformat films as required as advised by the team
- Act as runner as required — assisting with meetings, to get props for shoots, act as runner on shoots as needed and collecting items from various locations such as visas
- Keeping on top of filing tapes, and support the Video Library Assistant in logging tapes in and out of the system to ensure tapes can be easily retrieved
- Provide information to staff, outside parties and members of the public on Comic Relief TV programmes and videos as required
- During campaign with press team track Comic Relief’s presence on TV, recording all necessary programmes and logging into library
- Ensure costs for any project are reduced by obtaining gifts in kinds and volunteered time, in line with Comic Relief’s philosophy
- Participate as a full member of the Innovation and Creative Department and the Comic Relief team. Where appropriate to support initiatives and objectives across the whole organisation
Now, I know that Comic Relief is a brilliant charity that does lots of fantastic work to end poverty. And my understanding is that where internships happen in non-profit or charity organisations, they need not be paid, as these can be classed as ‘volunteer workers.’
I also understand that this exception to the NMW laws was originally designed to protect genuine volunteering (working in your local soup kitchen etc).
But I do want to raise this question, because I think it’s important:
Are some charities taking advantage of young people’s desperation to gain experience by labelling junior jobs as ‘volunteer’ roles — when they should in fact be paid?
I emailed the Comic Relief press office to raise my concerns. This is what happened:
From: Tanya de Grunwald
To: Comic Relief
Date: Monday, 6 December, 2010 15:15My name is Tanya de Grunwald and I run a graduate careers advice website called Graduate Fog.
I am surprised to see that you are openly advertising for an unpaid intern to help you at Comic Relief
http://jobs.comicrelief.com/vacancies/60/Mandy/broadcast_intern/central_london/As we all know, unpaid internships have become commonplace. However, it is my belief that they are ethically dubious – and their legal status is unclear. My understanding is that there is currently a loophole in the law designed to protect genuine volunteering for charities – but it is my belief that this is being exploited by many large charitable organisations simply looking to cut their costs at the expense of their most junior members of staff.
Your ad goes into great detail about the experience and skills required and as such, in my opinion, the role that you describe in your advertisement is not one of a true charitable volunteer. This part is particularly telling:
“You will receive full training and support, and experience of working on a busy campaign for a national charity brand. You will be a highly motivated individual, possibly a recent graduate, looking for your first step into a TV and video production career.”
– as it makes clear that you are fully aware that the people most likely to apply for this role will be doing so to improve their CV and further their career, and not because they genuinely wish to donate their time to Comic Relief for free. As such, it is my belief that it is only right that this role should be paid at least the NMW.
Even if we set your legal obligations aside for a moment, does Comic Relief not agree that unpaid internships exploit those who do them – and exclude those who can’t afford to do them? Your use of unpaid interns seems at odds with everything that Comic Relief is supposed to represent. Frankly, I would expect your organisation to be more careful about being seen to take advantage of young workers like this. Do you not agree that you are effectively only offering this career opportunity only to those who can afford to work for free, thereby excluding those who can’t afford this ‘luxury’?
I will be blogging about this later in the week and would be very grateful if somebody from your organisation would care to comment on this at your earliest convenience? Are you willing to reconsider your position and turn this role into a paid opportunity?
With many thanks
Tanya
A few days later, this reply came from their Head of Media and Public Affairs:
From: Comic Relief
To: Tanya de Grunwald
Date: Friday, 10 December, 2010 12:49Hi Tanya
Thanks for your enquiry into the volunteer internships at Comic Relief.
Please find below our statement in response.
Best wishes
Comic Relief Statement
Volunteering at Comic Relief is a great way for people to donate their time and skills to a good cause. The roles offered, many of which are part of an internship programme, are in addition to, not a substitute for paid positions and are organised fully within the law.
As a charity that promises to donate every pound raised directly from the public to the projects we fund, we are extremely grateful for the support, time and commitment of our volunteers. The office based work they undertake such as fundraising, marketing and media are all vital in working towards our vision of a just world free from poverty.
I replied:
From: Tanya de Grunwald
To: Comic Relief
Friday, 10 December, 2010 12:51Thanks for this. Can I just confirm that your own role is paid? If it is, would you be happy to do it for free?
Tanya
She replied:
From: Comic Relief
To: Tanya de Grunwald
Friday, 10 December, 2010 15:23Hi Tanya
As explained in the statement provided the volunteer roles offered are in addition to, not a substitute, for paid positions.
Best wishes
I replied:
From: Tanya de Grunwald
To: Comic Relief
Date: Friday, 10 December, 2010 16:08Thanks for this, but I’m afraid I’m struggling to understand your logic.
Are you saying that these interns are not necessary members of your team? That the paid members of your team don’t actually need these ‘volunteers’ – and that if they weren’t there these volunteers’ duties would either not be done, or would be distributed among paid members of your team?
Because your ad states:
From supporting our video production (acting as a runner, assisting on film shoots, sourcing props) to monitoring relevant broadcasts and handling admin, you’ll be at the heart of the production of one of the best-known events in TV.
…which sounds to me like this internship is a role made up of jobs that your (paid) team needs to be done.
I would also like to question whether you feel it is appropriate to label runners / admin assistants as ‘volunteers’, alongside those who shake buckets for Comic Relief outside their local chemist – when it is clear that their motivation is likely to be very different. Do you really believe that the people who apply for this internship will be true ‘volunteers’, honestly looking for a way to give back to society?
Because I have to say, I don’t – and I don’t think you do either. I feel that the following paragraph in your ad suggests that you are acutely aware that the people who apply for this job will not be ‘volunteers’ in the true sense at all – as you take great care to underline how beneficial this internship will be for their CV:
Bring us your passion for broadcasting and proven MS Office, organisational and communication skills and we’ll provide a CV-enhancing opportunity that will give you great insight into the world of TV and video production.
Again, I am aware that Comic Relief is currently covered by the loophole in the minimum wage laws which allows charities to behave like this – I am not suggesting that Comic Relief has done anything illegal.
What I am questioning is whether you feel that it is ethical for you to take on desperate young staff, to do proper work – and not pay them? And whether you agree that this is particularly inappropriate given Comic Relief’s aims in line with helping underprivileged youngsters? And surely you agree that those young people who cannot afford to work for free for three months will be excluded from this ‘CV-enhancing opportunity’? Do you feel that is in line with Comic Relief’s ethos?
I would also like to repeat my earlier question about whether you yourself get paid to do your job at Comic Relief?
Thanks again,
Tanya
She responded:
From: Comic Relief
To: Tanya de Grunwald
Date: Tuesday, 14 December, 2010 0:02Hi Tanya
Please refer to the previous statement provided in response to enquiries on our internship scheme.
Best wishes
Hmm.
What do you make of that?
Here is what I think, about unpaid internships in the charity sector:
When I give to charity, I understand that not every penny of my money will go directly to those in need. I understand that charities — like any organisation — have running costs. And I understand that paying their staff (at all levels) is one of those costs. I am not comfortable with the suggestion that that it is their donors’ agenda which is preventing their young staff from being paid the wage they deserve.
I do not want people working for charities to be over-paid for their expertise — but I am happy for them to earn a fair wage. I understand that they — like all of us — have bills to pay and I do not expect them to work for free. Last year, Comic Relief raised £80,000,000 from Red Nose Day alone. A junior admin assistant would be paid what, £16k?
From what some of you lot tell me about your experiences, I am concerned that interns working in the charity sector are being made to feel that asking for (or expecting) a wage for their hard work in what is clearly a proper role is a declaration of greed — and a sign that they are not cut out for a career in the industry. I think this is unfair.
I am seeing some evidence that senior staff within charities appear to have ‘double standards’ when it comes to pay. Why do they get paid a reasonable salary, but interns get paid nothing at all? Comic Relief are currently recruiting for two Communications Co-ordinators paying £34,000 each, which I understand is a very fair salary for this kind of role. Why are junior staff members expected to work for zero?
I am concerned that the line between junior admin roles and volunteering is being blurred to suit the agenda of charities which are keen to keep their costs down. I do not believe that the person who takes this role at Comic Relief is a true ‘volunteer’. Of course they want to do good work for good causes, but their number one reason for being there is for their CV. That’s okay – but that’s not a ‘volunteer’.
I am worried that the issue of unpaid internships within the charity sector is being hushed up, because it is an uncomfortable conversation to have — and nobody wants to be seen to attack organisations that do so much good work.
As I said at the start of this post, I am well aware that picking a fight with the charity sector is not a good look. But I honestly believe that this is an important issue that deserves discussion…
Decide for yourself – you can see the original ad for this ‘broadcast intern’ role here:
Comic Relief role description
*Should Comic Relief pay their interns?
Or do you think the good work done by charities means they should be exempt from a legal obligation to pay their junior staff?
I love her responses, and how neatly she dodges the question about whether she’d work for free. Totally right on this one, Tanya.
PS Check your email, I’ve sent you something that might interest you.
I really think you’re on to something here. Thanks for persisting with these questions.
@RedHeadFashionista – thanks!
Although I didn’t think she dodged my questions neatly at all – just TOTALLY IGNORED THEM!! It’s not like I asked her how MUCH she gets paid… just WHETHER she gets paid…
@Molly – thanks for the support, this is a bit of a sticky subject but I think it’s an important one to discuss….
You are absolutely right Tanya – this is a question that needs to be asked. Where is the morality in a paid individual doing necessary work for an organisation recruiting another individual, unpaid, to do equally necessary work? How can this Runner work be considered to be surplus to requirements in any way when every other film or tv shoot requires a runner, paid and busy, to do necessary work on the production? Who indeed would be “getting props for shoots” if this person were not?
That Comic Relief respondent is talking utter nonsense and she knows it – and, bearing in mind this charity funds UK youth projects, where is the virtue in taking food out of one hungry mouth simply to redistribute it to another equally hungry one?
Disgraceful and deceitful.
Mary – brilliant, especially the last line. I HATE this idea that an intern is a general errand-runner. I’ve had to run my fair share of errands in my…almost six months as an intern, and it sucks. As does doing the washing up. We aren’t SLAVES! I understand that, yes, we don’t know it all and we are lucky to be learning, but a friend of mine is training to be an accountant and he is getting paid over a grand a month JUST TO LEARN, whereas I am actually working and am not getting any money. Disgrace.
I’ve just seen this ad being tweeted by our ‘friends’ at Inspiring Interns. It doesn’t name the client, but this is what it says:
What do you reckon? Is it an internship – or a proper job that they don’t want to pay for / don’t have the money to pay for? And does the fact that this position is with a charity excuse the fact that they’ll basically be getting a full-time junior member of staff to work there for nothing? Hmm.
Many of those charities declare that they are signed up to Equal Opportunities – I fail to see how its Equal when only the more affluent can afford to work for nothing. Seems discriminatory to me.
@Joolsy
I agree – and I think we need to start asking much tougher questions about what’s going on here! The trouble is, it’s hard to take on a charity without looking like the bad guy!
Any ideas?
Not really, there more than a degree of arbitrariness here. The way in which its always youngsters who miss out and the arbitrary manner in which jobs are CHOSEN to be voluntary or not. Its curious how these decisions don’t seem to apply to jobs higher up the organisation (as this example ably demonstrates).
@ Tanya,
try the Charities Commission or the http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/
I’ve just contacted the Charities Commission – let’s see what they have to say…
Just while you’re all going utterly nuts at how awful the situation with this is, stop to think how many aren’t paid for their work on Comic Relief. The main production companies that’ve bagged contracts this year are doing everything for free – tens of thousands of pounds worth of production and post production… For nothing. There are many higher up who aren’t being paid too.
@Will – do you think the post production companies are doing it for nothing out of the goodness of their hearts?
It is a major TV event and a prize for them to take on. Kudos guaranteed.
Certain to look very nice in their portfolio.
But then if they are, as you insist, doing it because it is good to be charitable, then do tell me more about these companies’ other altruistic deeds… (Because here I was thinking this kind of company preferred to paint walls to fill its charitable quota)
The intern on the other hand isn’t exactly going to get a mention in the credits, is he/her?
Hi folks
Just checking you’ve all seen the update to this story, posted today on Graduate Fog?
Charity Commission refuses to back unpaid interns
Pretty shoddy I think!
Firstly, there is a specific exemption in the National Minimum Wage Act for unpaid workers in the charity and voluntary sector: they are called “voluntary workers” and they can be treated as ‘workers’ but without pay. In fact, it is a specific requirement that they are not paid at all except for out of pocket expenses.
Secondly, this is not a “loophole”. Loopholes are by definition unintentional (or at least masquerading as such). This was a specific and intentional section of the Act which was debated and voted on by your elected representatives – not some sort of careless error or omission in the legislation with unforeseen consequences, as you imply.
Stop charities and voluntary groups using unpaid volunteers (or Voluntary Workers)? Really? I don’t think this is going to win your campaign any support from the man on the street. Many smaller charities don’t have any salaried staff and rely entirely on people giving up their time and effort for free. It is human nature for people to help others – or pursue sporting or artistic pursuits with like-minded people – without any expectation of financial reward. Donating your time and effort is no different from donating your cash and is arguably more rewarding. This goes to the core of what charities and voluntary groups are all about. You might as well say ‘ban charity’.
John is failing to see the big picture, there are some massive charities arbitrarily applying the term ‘volunteer’ or ‘voluntary worker’ to anyone under 25. Its discrimination pure and simple.
http://www.tvwatercooler.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2616&p=17667#p17667
@John
Thanks for commenting – although i have to say I disagree with you, we’re always up for a good discussion on Graduate Fog! I hope it’s okay that I’ve re-published it on yesterday’s post, “Charity Commission refuses to back charity interns.” Hopefully it will generate some lively debate – I assumed that’s why you posted it?! ; )
Tanya
But the whole point is that they’re not arbitrary! Voluntary Worker is a legally defined term:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/39/section/44
What is charity if not helping others without seeking financial reward? With a smaller charity it may be possible to run it entirely with volunteers, but larger charities will need full time, reliable expertise to run a multi-million pound operation which cannot be provided by volunteers, but that does not mean they should not use volunteers on an ad hoc basis, for example in charity shops or on campaigns. At the end of the day, these aren’t essential roles, but ‘extras’ that can help the charity do more good work on the same amount of money.
I don’t really see what difference a person’s age makes or how it is ‘discrimination’. In my experience of volunteers or voluntary workers – eg. in charity shops – they tend to be older people if anything. And why is it that you’ve drawn the boundaries of this “discrimination” at “under 25”? Why not say under 26 or under 17? That’s the only thing that’s arbitrary.
I also disagree with the what Tanya says about it only ever being young people / junior roles that are unpaid. I think you’ll find that every single charity’s Board of Trustees is unpaid and not only that they often use their expensive expertise such accountancy or legal training to help the charity pro bono.
I’m afraid I agree – as I’m sure most people in the real world do – with the charity commission and I think you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of charity and charities.
@ John I have moved this discussion to the latest blog post “Charity Commission refuses to back charity interns.” Come and join us over there!
Tanya
The bottom line here, which you seem to be missing, is that nobody is forced to take an unpaid job. If they apply for such a position, they are aware that it is unpaid. I myself volunteered at Commic Relief for several months and later became a permanent employee and I actually feel as though I benefited a great deal from it. I had just come out of university and had little relevant work experience so the experience I gained from working there was invaluable to me. I also actively wanted to help out a charity at the same time as getting this experience. It did not cost me anything as I was paid expenses and I could have left at any time, had I found another job (which, in fact, I later did). The work these people do is amazing and it was a fantastic place to work. I was only too happy to do it for free and am proud of the contribution I made. I can’t speak highly enough of the staff at Comic Relief and I think you should get your priorities right – there are far more workplace injustices out there than unpaid volunteers working in the charity sector – work which they can simply choose not to do if they object to the lack of salary.
@Rachel.
Ahh, the old “I’m alright Jack -so where’s the problem” argument. The problem is its discrimination, lucky you for being rich enough to be able to work for a prestigious charity, I’m sure lots of other less well off people – even older people would love to work there. Trouble is they can’t afford to work for nothing.
I don’t buy it “I’m alright Jack” doesn’t cure the underlying discrimination, it simply prolongs and promulgates it.
There is no need to be quite so patronising. You know nothing about me so you have no right to make assumptions. I am not “rich” by any stretch of the imagination, I was simply proactive enough to see the sense in working for nothing to gain experience whilst applying for paid jobs. Having just come out of university, I was around £20,000 in debt but if that is what you call rich then fine. Don’t judge other people just because you have a chip on your shoulder.
Don’t judge other people just because you have a chip on your shoulder.
Why not? You discriminate and then claim ‘its not my fault’ ignoring the consequences of your actions. How is that charitable?
I work (paid) for a large conservation charity in the UK, as a volunteer recruitment officer (amongst other things) and whilst I agree and support the probing nature of this article- I do wonder if you’ve missed the mark on a couple of points.
The idea of volunteering to help bolster a CV is not a new one, and when I started working for the organisation I work for now, I started an an unpaid intern on a year long programme. I did this or two reasons- because I supported the aims if the organisation, and because I couldn’t find work, and as the internship came with accommodation, I was able to live off my savings in order to do something I felt would really add to my CV. I was a volunteer in my role, and whilst you state that people who do internship to bolster CVs and enhance employability aren’t ‘real’ volunteers, I have to disagree with you.
As an organisation, we’ve done countless market research sessions looking at why people volunteer, in order to try and better understand people’s motivations, in the hopes that that understanding would allow us to appeal and tailor our offer to ensure we both meeting people’s needs, and also that their work would allow us to facilitate meeting our objectives as a charity. The motivations for volunteering are enormously vast, and whilst in most people there is an underlying altruistic motivation, for many people, it is a two fold decision- ranging from loneliness, rehabilitation (a number of our volunteers come to us after suffering severe medical conditions such as strokes and heart attacks) to educational purposes (princes trust, DofE, evidence of community work for university applications). Some come to us after being made redundant, looking to build their confidence back up, and some come to us simply because they retired and they want to get out of the house before their husband/wife drives them mad. Rarely are the reasons for volunteering as simple as wanting simply to offer something to that organisation.
However, what you do touch on, that I agree with, is the purpose and nature of the volunteering offered by some organisations. Nearly 90% of the core work we do is done by paid staff. That isn’t to say we don’t rely on our volunteers, because we do- and what they offer to us in the breadth of experience, knowledge and time is incredible- however, we have to be able to support and run ourselves as a business, and to know we are staffed and skilled to be able to run ourselves and meet our objectives, should something disastrous happen to our volunteer body. The problem occurs when volunteers are relied on too heavily to deliver objectives- to plug gaps, as it were, in paid staffing time and expertise. My internship was a total disaster- badly organised, unstructured, unfocused- I ended up being a real jack of all trades, working every where without an idea of what I was working towards. I was, in effect, unpaid labour, and all the valuable skills and knowledge I learn was acquired around the edges of my internship, by ‘working’ 7 days a week to try and get all I could from the experience. And I didn’t know any better, being young and relatively inexperienced at the time. However, things have come a long way since then, and they don’t have to be that way. A good internship offers the chance to train and acquire key skills and knowledge, gives a foot up to those struggling to enhance their CV in a competitive and unpredictable employment market, and allows an orgnanisation to compliment it’s permanent team’s skills and expertise with new ideas and new blood. A well organised, structured, focused internship is a wonderful opportunity, regardless of what the management and CEOs of large charities get paid (a whole different, more complicated and all together more contentious kettle of fish). An intern viewed as free labour is a recipe for disaster. It’s all in the understanding the organisation, expectations of both parties, something not always clarified or truly appreciated when large charities come up with new internship programmes.
I think honestly that one of the main reasons that people are turning on charities who are run, often mainly by volunteers is because this logic is filtering through from voluntary organisations into private companies.
We all know that volunteering is hardly new, nor that nepotism exists in a lot of industries, however it is only recently that huge quantities of firms started basically auditioning applicants with 3+ month internships before they gained entry level roles in the firm, effectively barring the doors to people who do not live within in the immediate area and/or are of low income anyway. This especially rankles in a time when it is not so easy to just pick up some shifts in whatever local pub to save up to do these placements.
You said that you did a 12 month internship. Fair enough, for me since I didn’t live near a major city centre that would have cost about £10k to finance given private rent costs. Fine if you can afford it basically.
Anecdotally, given that many already start in debt (though student debt is not the same as career development loan debt etc), a lot of young people are extremely cynical about these opportunities since they don’t “Start with nothing” and in many cases are starting a long way into the red.
evil people exploiting on many levels