39 Comments

1. RedHeadFashionista on January 28, 2011 at 12:14 pm

   The irony (to use the American definition) of this is HILARIOUS, but they are right in making it a part-time post in order for the successful candidate to get a job in the mean time. Except that, well, good luck getting a part-time job, and one that pays well enough!
   It was good of Zoe to backtrack so eloquently here, her honesty about it being all about who you know nowadays, especially when it comes to jobs in a field like this, and she is right – there is a catch 22 for most, erm, 22-year-olds, in that they don’t have the right skills to get into proper jobs but that the only way to learn those skills is on the job.
   I’m with you on the weird half-removal of the ad though…

2. Joddle on January 28, 2011 at 12:53 pm

   With part-time internships it is possible to claim JSA while doing it, and Housing Benefit if needed. This kind of internship is quite good in the grand scheme of things. Could give the person quality experience and because it is only for 3 months, wouldn’t stray into that exploitative territory. Also the intern probably wouldn’t have the (barely ever realised) expectation of being offered paid work there after it is finished, either. It is awful to work hard for no pay for months and then be told that the organisation ‘can’t afford to pay you’ etc.

   If it were a paid internship that would be the best option, for most people. However, because of the crazy benefits system, I wouldn’t be able to do it if that were the case. With a full-time paid internship I wouldn’t be able to pay my rent (£575 London prices). Yet I could afford to do it if it is unpaid – still eligible for JSA and Housing Benefit.

   It is a very complicated problem.

   I hereby begin the campaign for starter-level jobs!

3. Joddle on January 28, 2011 at 1:15 pm

   ‘Only super rich or really poor can do unpaid internships’

   To an extent, I agree.
   I think we have got to a situation where, effectively, the state is subsidising businesses to take on labour without the business directly paying for it. I ‘volunteered’ for around 8 months – two different placements.

   Approximate cost to the local council / taxpayer:

   Housing benefit – £2880
   JSA – £1632

   Who benefits, then? Business.

4. T-Bagg on January 28, 2011 at 1:47 pm

   if you don’t like volunteering, Joddle, get a job. It isn’t hard, just look at gumtree. Why have you got expensive rent if you don’t have a job? Consider moving somewhere cheaper, at least until you get a job. I’m happy to volunteer, and have earned my v-certificate for 50 hours plus volunteering.

5. Joddle on January 28, 2011 at 2:20 pm

   @ T Bagg

   I do like volunteering – that is why I have volunteered over 1500 hours. That is at least 30 certificates worth!

   Thanks for your job searching advice but I don’t waste my time on Gumtree as I am not trying to land a modelling contract, get a chugger job, or promote bars etc without getting paid for it.

   Your comments about rent are naive. You will learn about paying rent when you enter the real world. Well done for volunteering though.

6. RedHeadFashionista on January 28, 2011 at 2:20 pm

   T-Bagg…I have a feeling it’s not QUITE that simple. Though there’s a Tesco near me that’s looking for staff.

7. Sara B on January 28, 2011 at 2:29 pm

   @ T Bagg

   Your naiveté is both touching and irritating. I’d be interested to know what your own circumstances are that you genuinely think it’s “not that hard” to find a job. Look on Gumtree? Are you serious?

   As for your comments on rent – also laughable – I think Joddle has covered that.

   I’m intrigued by the idea that unpaid internships benefit not just the richest but also the poorest. I didn’t realise that the benefits system made that possible. Do you think enough people realise that and take advantage of it?

   As for the ‘dead ad’ thing, as convoluted as it is, I can understand why the ad has to remain on the site. If it disappeared, those that work at the website may be inundated with queries and complaints, whereas if they keep it there with a disclaimer, it minimises the comeback. If you’ve ever worked in a company where you are the person receiving this comeback, you’ll understand why it’s necessary!

8. T-Bagg on January 28, 2011 at 2:35 pm

   that us a lot of time volunteering! in one way, well done! In another way your time may be better spent looking for a job so you can stop claiming the housing benefit.

   have you asked your friends for jobs? a lot of people get jobs that way. Also, they advertise jobs in the back of newspapers.

   How can I be naive if I’ve got a job? I’m getting another soon.

9. T-Bagg on January 28, 2011 at 2:37 pm

   @Redhead

   exactly.

10. Lucy on January 28, 2011 at 3:03 pm

    I think that unpaid internships, especially part-time ones, are essential for graduates to gain necessary skills. Most university courses don’t cover the things employers want so for a student to get experience in a business environment is vital.

    The problem is, most people I know would just scoff at it. Doing something for nothing isn’t their style. Of course, then they moan that they haven’t got experience and so can’t get a job. I think that if you want to make it in the world you have to take the unpaid, voluntary stuff in order to get yourself the correct skills.

11. T-Bagg on January 28, 2011 at 3:08 pm

    Sara b-Thank you for showing interest. I work at part time so I can have a little money during my studies. I’m looking to start roofing with my uncle soon. I volunteer when I can at a local disability charity because I think its good to volunteer. If it pays I’ll do it.

12. Sara B on January 28, 2011 at 3:33 pm

    @ T Bagg

    Okay, I can understand your position much better now. You are still studying, right? In that case, your naiveté makes sense. Unfortunately, by the time you leave your studies, you’ll likely remember this page and your comments, and feel a little shamefaced. I guarantee you will see this whole situation differently when you are the graduate.

    It’s one thing to be looking for part time work to subsidise your studies. It’s quite another to be a graduate looking for full time employment being forced by circumstance to consider what part time jobs are available. On top of that, you have the fact that a lot of companies simply don’t hire grads for part time work, because they know the graduate will leave at the first opportunity.

13. Raincheck on January 28, 2011 at 3:40 pm

    Think this is all caused by a greater and more complex issue for the job climate in the UK today:
    People are living longer all the time, and they are not just getting older they are in much better health for longer. This means they keep working as many as 10-15 years longer than previously causing a decline in need to recruit inexperienced applicants. Causing the rising levels of young adult unemployment.
    This problem is not anyone’s fault, but it is an issue, an issue that will only get worse over time.

14. Crack-pip on January 28, 2011 at 3:52 pm

    This is just a bunch bloody moaning. Stop wasting your time worrying about stuff that don’t concern you. If you lot spent less time sitting on your moany little arses youd probably have jobs by now.

15. Sara B on January 28, 2011 at 4:02 pm

    @Crack-pip

    Your logic is infallible. I am re-evaluating my life choices as we speak.

16. Tanya de Grunwald on January 28, 2011 at 4:20 pm

    @All

    Hi – some ace debate here this afternoon – thanks so much to everyone who has contributed!

    Zoe at the High Pay Commission has asked if we can provide answers to these questions – what do you think?

    I suppose there are two questions I would like to know the answer to.

    First, if you are successful in ending internships/voluntary work in all in political organisations or not-for-profit organisations or charities how will young people who are genuinely passionate about an issue or party but lack the networks created through having family ties etc be able to get their foot in the proverbial door?

    Second, I completely agree that where organisations ask for individuals to work full time for months on end this can act to exclude all but those with the family able to support them. Our offer of a internship advertised on a public site was for 1-2 days a week for a maximum of 2 months with all travel and lunch costs covered. We felt this was important as it meant that people could work or study at the same time. Obviously given your reaction you don’t think this was acceptable, and you may be right. However, we still would like to offer young people the opportunity to gain experience in a way which is as fair as possible. What would you personally consider to be fair in this regard?

    Any thoughts?

17. Joddle on January 28, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    @ Raincheck

    It would seem that there aren’t as many jobs around as before. Family members tell me that you could just go out and get a job, just like that, in a day. And then if you didn’t like it – you could jack it in – no probs as they were plenty more where they came from.

    And these were the days when people would be taken on without having experience. This is because you would learn on the job, while being paid.

    Why have we moved so far away from this? Employers expect you to come to them as the finished article. It was refreshing when I got my first bar job when I was 18 – as the boss just said, ‘okay, when can you start?’

    There was no have to have experience catch22. I self-doubtingly told him I hadn’t worked in a bar before. And he dismissed this, saying anyone could learn.

    I wholeheartedly agree that people can learn on the job. These days, unfortunately, young people shouldn’t expect to be paid while learning on the job.

    Also, why is the argument always that young people need experience (from internships) in order to get a job? I think this implies that young graduates are automatically useless and skill-less. I have been working since the age of 14 – so I’ve had experience in lots of areas. Think I’m rambling on now! Just trying to say, stop making out that we are useless and need these internships to make a useful contribution at work!

18. Joddle on January 28, 2011 at 4:38 pm

    What the High Pay Commission is proposing, is more like work experience than an internship.

    My instincts are against this whole practice of unpaid internships. Yet having been there and done that, this on isn’t ‘that bad’.

    It would look good on a CV but I doubt as to whether this would in fact be a foot in the door, as Zoe seems to be suggesting. Except for ultra-confident public school grads (no offence intended). But these people have connections to get paid work anyway.

    If they really want to help young people get experience in this area, the intern should shadow the manager/director and go to all meetings. This way they stand a chance of making an impact while there. Unrealistic? Quite possibly..

19. Tanya de Grunwald on January 28, 2011 at 4:39 pm

    Okay, I’ll kick off:

    Zoe seems like a decent enough person (though I’d be kicking w4mp’s arse if they refused to take down my unpaid intern ad that i was getting flak for on Twitter!) but I think she has fallen into the kind of lazy / distorted thinking that so many employers seem to have done recently.

    I’m still struggling to work out how we have a situation where so many supposedly intelligent people are tying themselves in knots over this ‘Catch 22’ / ‘dilemma’ or however they like to present it. IMO there is no dilemma or Catch 22 (apart from on the interns’ part, as RedHeadFashionista said).

    For me, it all comes down to a basic understanding of the basic relationship between employer and employee, and the definition of what ‘work’ is. Unless I’ve missed something, this hasn’t changed over night…

    Look, useful Labour is something that employers should pay for – end of story. If they pay their cleaner, they should pay their intern (as long as the intern is doing useful work and not just work shadowing). What interns are getting out of the experience is irrelevant – and getting bogged down with this only clouds the picture.

    We all get something out of doing our paid work, other than just money, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be paid to do it. We gain experience, a sense of self-worth, a routine, etc… But these are ‘by products’ of our work and has NOTHING to do with what the employer should pay for our skills and labour.

    I can’t see any evidence that this has suddenly changed. And if it has, why hasn’t it affected workers at all levels of seniority? Picking on the workers who are most vulnerable (read: desperate for experience) is vile exploitation, plain and simple.

    We need to move away from this idea that employers are somehow ‘giving’ young workers something, by allowing them to work for them.

    It is corrosive and – as we’ve seen – serves only to line employers’ pockets, whilst ripping off not only the interns who work hard for them but also the taxpayer (as pointed out by Joddle). Unpaid internships pull down wages for everybody, and entry level jobs vanish (why pay for an employee when someone will always do it for free). Not to mention the appalling way they unpaid internships exclude those who can’t afford to do them, which is a tragedy for those poorer kids who have struggled through crappy schools and into uni – only to be thwarted at the final step because they can’t afford to work for free.

    Who the hell CAN? I can’t!

20. Joddle on January 28, 2011 at 5:20 pm

    I recently met Simon Hughes MP and the topic of internships came up.

    He said he doesn’t employ people who have done too many internships. The implication was that interns get institutionalised, or something, and don’t make good employees (in the cut-throat world of politics, at least.

    This was of great interest to me. Certainly, internships distort the employee-employer relationship to an unwanted and unhealthy level. I imagine that the serial intern, so used to working for nothing, grateful of the favour to work for nothing and earn ‘experience’, is left unable to assert him/herself in the workplace.

    Beware serial interns!

21. Mary B on January 28, 2011 at 8:05 pm

    Here are answers to your two questions Zoe:

    1. The “internships” you are referring to are not internships, if by that you mean they are chances to learn, opportunities that are geared around a young person’s educational needs. They are jobs – work – unpaid work.

    Don’t believe me?

    Look at what is offered in 99% of these “internships” – they almost always require the person to do real work – unpaid. That’s not “work experience” it’s “experience through work”, and it is almost always set up for the employers’ benefit, for the employer to get some free work.

    And that’s relevant whether the organisation is “not for profit” or no (Do you get paid? Does your Chief Exec?).

    2. You’d like to offer young people the opportunity to gain experience in a way which is as fair as possible? Great! That’s easy Zoe, but first don’t advertise a job of work (like you have). Set up a really pukka, properly constituted internship with learning objectives, reviews and measurable outcomes. It could be a beacon for others to follow.

    Too much like hard work?

    Thought so. But then, are you really looking to help young people into a career or is ist all about wanting that admin, researching, event organising and website updating done?

    Go on – prove me wrong, set up and advertise a real internship on w4mp and I’ll happily eat humble pie and crave forgiveness for misjudging you.

    Oh and the w4mp website – how that shady set up manages to show its face and claim any kind of credibility beats me. It’s been peddling illegal unpaid work for years and years now. Nasty business

22. CareersPartnershipUK on January 28, 2011 at 9:48 pm

    A couple of points….

    1. Most undergrads work part-time during their degrees and many of them do basic clerical / admin work. A lot of the internships seem to offer more of the same low-level experience. Working in a different office doing the same kind of thing (though not getting paid for it) won’t be of any value to the grad, will it?

    2. Jobs like these used to be done by temps (usually non-graduates). If grads do them unpaid, then job opportunities for temps vanish and yet more downward pressure is placed on temp rates.

23. charlene on January 29, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    As I understand it, The High Pay Commission is NOT FOR PROFIT.

    I support volunteering for not-for-profit and charitable organisations and so must support it in this case too.

    Advice for Zoe would be:

    Use the correct language. Advertise as a volunteering opportunity for those wanting to support the cause. Once labeled an internship it makes free-labour ‘internship specific’ rather than ‘charity specific’. Free-labour needs to stay charity specific.

    Support diversity. Target EVERYONE. Leaving out the word internship for the above reason is enough, but leave it out to support diversity too!

    If Zoe wants to attract more interest in her volunteer positions, then it is fine to say it also offers work experience. But it must be treated seriously. Menial tasks MUST be balanced with more advanced skill development (her shadowing idea was good) else it is false advertising for older applicants who know very well how to use a photocopier (thank you very much!).

    I support your campaign, Tanya. But in the realm of profit making business, where all work MUST be paid. I doubt anyone wants to work for the cause of ‘Mr Chairman’s massive bonus due to high profits because of the use of slaves’. But meaningful charities and causes rely on donations of money and time and that shouldn’t be challenged. The High Pay Commission falls into that category.

    Love this website!

24. Tanya de Grunwald on January 29, 2011 at 7:52 pm

    @Charlene

    Thanks for your comment – and I’m glad you like this website. Welcome!

    However, I’m afraid i disagree with your point about this work that is now being called ‘volunteering’ for not-for-profits / charities – simply because i don’t believe it is true volunteering at all. Does Zoe get paid to do her work? Does her boss? I would be very surprised if not… My mum works for a charity and she gets paid… Otherwise, how would she live? The same principles apply whatever age you are – you have to put bread on the table.

    The argument that anybody working for any sort of ‘good cause’ shouldn’t expect payment seems to be nonsense to me. Staff costs are part of the running costs of a charity/non-profit – and that includes staff at ALL levels. When I give to a charity, I understand that not every penny will go towards the starving children, etc. Reasonable running costs are to be expected. I don’t expect everybody who works at the British Heart Foundation, Cancer Research etc to work for free, whether they are a cleaner or a press officer. Everybody needs money to live.

    IMO, true volunteering is helping out at your local soup kitchen once a week, or rattling a tin at your local train station. It’s visiting the elderly or helping one morning a week at your local church group. Going into an office to do a desk-job 2 days a week for three months is NOT true volunteering. And I find it repugnant when people imply that young interns are in some way being greedy expecting to be paid for their work, just because the organisation they’re working for ‘a good cause’. It’s hypocritical too. This ‘It’s for a good cause so you shouldn’t expect payment’ argument is one i only ever hear used against junior workers. Everybody else who works for charities – except for true volunteers, and possibly a couple of non-executive directors – get paid, so why not the interns (as long as they’re doing proper work, of course)? This argument is manipulative and underhand. It takes advantage of vulnerable young workers, who are so desperate to gain ‘experience’ that they will put up with this nonsense, whether they believe it to be the truth or not.

    I take it you disagree with my challenge of Comic Relief’s junior ‘volunteer’ role too?

    https://graduatefog.co.uk/2010/1176/comic-relief-pay-interns/

    Of course, I do not want to ‘ban’ all volunteer work (and there is a loophole in the law which is designed to protect true volunteering). I just think we need to be very clear on how we define true volunteering – and do NOT confuse it with exploiting young people for free labour. At present, it is my belief that some non-profits and charities are taking advantage of this loophole to label their ‘interns’ (carrying out the roles of junior office clerks) as ‘volunteer workers’, when in fact everybody knows that they are not there to volunteer out of the goodness of their hearts, simply because they care so much about the cause – they are there in the hope that one day it might lead to paid work. Sorry, but in my book that’s not true volunteering.

    Do you accept that there is a difference between true volunteering and ‘volunteering’? Feel free to disagree, I’m just genuinely interested in this point!

25. charlene on January 29, 2011 at 9:29 pm

    Thanks Tanya. Yes, I see your argument and the issue is far more complex than my above comment. However, charities – small charities – are as desperate for admin staff as they are frontline staff in times when donations and applied-for funds are scarce. How do we protect important causes desperately trying to stay afloat in order to meet important social needs? Do we let them die out? Or must we properly define when volunteering becomes slave labour? What is your cut-off point?

    I wholeheartedly agree with your Comic Relief challenge. They are a large organisation who are able to successfully and consistently fundraise large sums of money each year and manage to fund large teams of staff. They require a very specific role filled, they pay for it! They are exploiting their profile and the applicant.

    I’d hate to uphold the ‘it’s for a good cause so it’s greedy to expect payment’ argument. I’m from the ‘I’ve seen so many charities fail due to lack of resources and support that some help would be greatly appreciated before our society goes to pot!’ side of the argument.

    Perhaps the act of volunteering needs to meet some conditions, such as (just as an example – more could be added):

    – duties can be undertaken outside of working hours
    – volunteers have flexibility and choice over their ‘gift’ of hours and duration of contract as well as the type of work.
    – the charity is ‘at risk’ or utterly reliant on the ‘gift’ being a ‘gift’ and can prove so.

    But yes, larger charities that have sufficient income and teams (and therefore no desperate need for unpaid office staff) seem to be exploiting their charitable status. I would guess this is the case for the High Pay Commission, although wouldn’t like to say without knowing more about them (size, bank balance etc).

26. charlene on January 29, 2011 at 11:07 pm

    p.s. I have been following your campaign and came across this advert on Compass’s website.

    http://www.compassonline.org.uk/about/jobs.asp

    A think tank for the democratic left would you believe?? Think they are even be linked to the High Pay Commission! I got really riled and started writing an email before I noticed their charitable status. Since you have put me right on the issue, I finished the email. I may even send it.

    They want potential ‘volunteers’ to ‘write a max.200 word statement on what qualities make an excellent office volunteer [and email] to Gavin the General Secretary’.

    I wrote:

    ‘What makes an excellent office volunteer in 200 words?

    Someone who can afford not to work. I’m not poor so I’m excellent. Someone who is so desperate to get a job they will work for free and think you are doing them a favour. Being desperate is excellent. Someone who thinks that organisations that can afford staff shouldn’t bother paying them. Being a slave is excellent. Someone who loves the no experience = no job catch-22 helped along by a culture of unpaid work. Disempowered is excellent. Someone who thinks menial, low-skilled tasks counts as such enriching work experience that they should be paying the organisation for the pleasure of performing them. Being duped is excellent. Someone who wants it to be harder to set foot on the pay scale. Staying poorer for longer is excellent. So, if you are looking for a well-off and /or desperate, disempowered and duped slave who really likes poverty I’m your gal. Sorry, that was only 150 words. Umm… I really slogged my guts out for 3 years reading politics and philosophy at a top 10 university??? I hope that doesn’t imply I deserve a wage!! No way! I told you, I’m excellent!’

    🙂

27. Robin Whitlock on January 30, 2011 at 5:31 pm

    I think they could easily solve their staffing requirements in this respect by recruiting students currently at university for work experience. There’s absolutely no way that this organisation in particular should get away with ’employing’ unpaid interns.

28. Louise on January 30, 2011 at 7:44 pm

    Absolutely 100% spot on Robin. And that opportunity is open to every company that is really seeking to offer a proper internship so why do they not take it and use graduates as unpaid workers instead? Is it because they actually don’t want to help young people, but are seeking just to use them instead?

    Those are rhetorical ones btw.

29. Tanya de Grunwald on January 30, 2011 at 8:31 pm

    @Charlene – I like your email to Compass! And you’re right – there is a link between Compass and the High Pay Commission. I know that Zoe Gannon is following this conversation, so perhaps she can explain. Zoe?

30. Zoe Gannon on January 31, 2011 at 9:32 am

    Hi,

    Thank you for all the comments so far, your discussion is both interesting and useful.

    In regards to the link between Compass and the HPC it is explained on the website. Essentially, Compass assisted in initially establishing the project and now the Commission runs independent from any organisation or political party.

    Tanya, you rightly identify that I do get paid for the work I do for the Commission.

    However, I’m not sure I completely agree with you on the volunteering front. For example, I am a member of the Labour Party, and because I support the Labour Party, I stuff envelopes, deliver leaflets, update databases and any other number of not hugely exciting jobs which I do not get paid for. I did this when I was a student, and when I was unemployed, and I do it now. This is not unusual and in fact no political party could function without the labour of thousands of individuals. I would never consider asking to be paid — even though many people work for the Labour Party. I also volunteer for a project called the Free Representation Unit, here again I work for free to provide representation to people who are undergoing social security tribunals. This involves a combination of research, letter writing and sitting in waiting rooms for tribunals to start. I do this because there is no legal aid for this work, and if people like me, and law students didn’t give their time for free there would be no representation for these people. Over the years I have helped with admin, or fundraising, or event organising for a whole range of organisations that I believe in.

    Most people I know who work in politics or NGOs, do enormous amounts of work outside of their paid positions, this is labour, but no one would consider asking for payment for it.

    Internships in not-for-profit or political organisations sit in a gray area. I don’t think anyone would want to be in a situation where people (young or not) were are not able and encouraged to give their time for projects and organisations they support.

    But as youth unemployment rises horrifically, these internships can appear (or potentially even be) exploitative, particularly where they last for a significant period of time and ask individuals to do the equivalent of full-time work.

    At the HPC we are taking this issue very seriously.

    We want to provide young people with an opportunity to gain some work experience, learn some useful skills, and be involved in a project they are interested in and support. We are not in a position to provide a paid internship, as the budget for the year has been agreed and as we finish in November there is no future budget to consider.

    We have not made a final decision on what this could involve, and any decision will certainly be informed by this discussion. Issues you have raised such as having learning outcomes, and providing more experience through the opportunity to attend meetings or seminars, will all be considered. We also feel it is important that these are not full time positions, so that they could be carried out at the same time as studying, or even working. I would be interested to know what people think about this.

    Thank you again for your involvement in this discussion,

    Zoe

31. charlene on January 31, 2011 at 3:36 pm

    Zoe,

    I think the volunteering work you do is fantastic. I have also worked with some very worthy and volunteer reliant organisations and individuals. Ranging from support with sex discrimination tribunals to providing PR services for small children’s charities. However, I think you have missed the point slightly. Or maybe I have? Your answers to the following questions might help…

    The duties on the Compass website were listed as follows:

    ‘…database updating and mailings; other days you’ll be helping with event management and membership organisation or updating the website, you may also be required to provide support for our research projects. A flexible outlook at all times is therefore essential…’

    1) Are you suggesting that the ONLY WAY that these duties could be undertaken is by having volunteers (as in the cases of the volunteering work we have both undertaken)? What would happen if volunteers did not apply? Would the duties be absorbed by current staff members or would a paid role be created?

    If volunteers are not absolutely essential to the ongoing survival of a particular cause/service, isn’t it just cost cutting? exploitation?

    2) If it is a vital volunteering role, why is it just targeting young people? Again, exploiting a specific group known to be desperate for skills and paid work.

    3) The ‘skills’ outlined in the advert are pretty much gained to various degrees in university. Project work, team work, admin, computer skills, society events, etc are all par for the course. What higher level skills are being proposed? Experience of an office? Couldn’t you just give a tour?

    If you are proposing advanced skill training and hands on experience in a particular field it should be advanced-skill-training intensive, not low-skilled-work intensive. In the latter case there is not only zero return in pay, but a minimal return in skill set.

    So far, the Compass Ad suggests a role that offers no advanced training and no pay, for the pleasure of hanging out with and servicing PAID workers who could probably do the work themselves or PAY someone to. Doesn’t sound good does it? Well.. sounds great for Compass.

    Is it so hard to see the alternative to unpaid work? My last question is:

    4) If all forms of unpaid work were completely outlawed tomorrow, what do you think the reaction would be?

    a) Companies would abolish all their training programs forever.

    or

    b) Companies would use profits to INVEST in their trainees (as many do) as they are very aware of their benefits. Eg, new talent equals growth, expansion, innovation,etc. And interns would gain vital advanced skills for current and future employment.

    What about…

    a) Organisations would not create paid roles too fill gaps.

    or

    b) Organisations would accept all labour is to be paid for and either improve efficiency or advertise essential paid positions. Either way, young people aren’t exploited.

    What about….

    a) Larger, fairly to very well funded, medium to high profile charities/projects would fail or be unable to fulfill their purpose.

    or

    b) They would increase efficiency or step up fundraising to account for vital roles.

    Aren’t the alternatives to exploiting young unemployed workers more desirable? Shouldn’t we strive towards more desirable ideals for society? Compass and the HPC must know this more than anyone.

32. charlene on January 31, 2011 at 3:45 pm

    P.S. Zoe – While I know you work for the HPC and not Compass, I gather the roles are very similar (if not almost exactly the same) and so have used the example I have personally seen.

33. Tanya de Grunwald on January 31, 2011 at 5:25 pm

    @Zoe – thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

    However, like Charlene, I feel strongly that the examples of your volunteering are very different in nature from the kind of work that interns are being asked to do as ‘volunteers’.

    For me, the nature of the relationship between worker and employer is key here. In other words – who has the power?

    If you do unpaid work around your regular (paid) job because you genuinely want to give your time to a cause you feel passionately about, that’s true volunteering. You are choosing to give your time and expect nothing in return. You can also leave at any time. You have the power.

    If you do unpaid work because you think it will look good on your CV / broaden your understanding or experience in order to give you an extra ‘edge’ when applying for jobs, that is something else – but it is not true volunteering as you are doing it for selfish reasons. Again, you have the power.

    (Some interns would say that this is what they are doing by interning – but I disagree, as you’ll see in a sec)

    If you set up your own thing and work on it for free (like I do with Graduate Fog) because you are building something for yourself that you believe will one day be profitable, you have the power.

    If you have no possible way of breaking into your chosen industry unless you work for free for somebody who is getting real VALUE from your work, you do NOT have the power.

    At its heart, power is surely key to the whole concept of ‘exploitation’. It is all about somebody in a stronger position taking advantage of somebody in a weaker position.

    Frankly, I find it borderline appalling that we even have to debate this definition. For me, it’s like asking ‘Why is bullying bad?’ ‘Why don’t victims stick up for themselves?’

    You just know when you’re bullying someone, or if you see someone being bullied, or intimidated – you can feel it. Can’t employers just ‘feel’ when they’re taking advantage of their interns? Or have we all become so ‘busy’ (read: selfish) that we no longer care?

34. Joddle on January 31, 2011 at 6:05 pm

    In my experience charity is just another name for business, though the outcome of its work has beneficial outcomes for individuals or societies.

    Every charity I have ‘volunteered’ with seeks to grow year by year. This is exactly the same as business, which is why business is always chasing growth or expanding into new territories. This is the nature of the beast.

    As charities become increasingly professionalised, fundraising staff or team members have their performance come under increased scrutiny. Staff will seek to make their performance seem more efficient or spectacular in any way they can. As a result unpaid ‘volunteering’ is very attractive to charities. For example, I raised something like £10,000 while ‘volunteering’ – which was income that the charity in question was unlikely to elicit otherwise.

    My free labour also freed up members of the team to up the level of high value fundraising applications submitted.

    If they were to pay someone to do this work they would raise more money. Yet it would most probably unfavourably affect their all important fundraising ratios.

    I never accepted that they couldn’t afford to pay me. I think they prefer to focus on growth and expansion – setting up new projects which will appeal to a wider group of donors etc.

    Good causes are perfectly able to exploit their employees

35. RedHeadFashionista on February 1, 2011 at 3:06 pm

    I’m mainly caught up on the idea that a lot of undergrads do administrative work alongside their studies. How on earth do they get that without a degree if they will then have serious problems getting even the most basic admin job when they have a degree? Most of my friends worked in bars and shops all the way through uni.

36. CareersPartnershipUK on February 1, 2011 at 4:49 pm

    @RedHeadFashionista

    The ones I know were temping. Their first assignments were usually for only one or two days work; the agencies put them forward when they didn’t have anyone else to send. Once they’d got a track record with the employers and agencies, they were offered better and longer assignments.

    If you think about it, basic clerical and admin jobs used to be done by 16 year old school leavers with no exam qualifications at all. They’re not that demanding, are they?

37. King Canute on February 1, 2011 at 6:00 pm

    In common with a group of other individuals working in the television (and to a lesser extent, film) industries, I have been campaigning on this issue for several years.

    In areas such as the creative industries “work experience” and latterly “internships” tend simply to mean unpaid workers. There are thousands of hopefuls chasing very few jobs, all of whom have been told that they’ll have to work unpaid before they have any chance of landing unpaid work. As Tanya observes (correctly IMHO) the catch 22 is that with a never ending supply of “interns” there are virtually no entry level jobs.

    I am from a different generation, so I have a different perspective. In my day if you worked you got paid, and as you gained experience you climbed the promotion ladder and your job was filled by another newcomer. Obviously new entrants lack experience, so it was the employer’s job to ensure that they got the support and training they needed to be useful. That’s just investing in your workforce, but that’s a mindset which is sadly lacking in many employers, who live a hand to mouth existence and expect their workers to do the same. It’s not a brilliant way to run any kind of industry…

    Our campaign back in 2005 did have some notable success, and nowadays most of the larger independent producers wouldn’t dream of not paying their workers (I hope!). However I fear that wasn’t because they’d had an ethical revelation and more because they realised that they were in breach of the law and feared being sued.

    It is depressing to see the “internship” rot spreading into any area of work which offers some prospect of a stimulating career. There’s little doubt in my mind that it makes entry to those jobs difficult if not impossible to all but the smallest of groups.

    I do lots of voluntary work, and I’d agree with the comment earlier that the difference is that you do that because it’s something you care about not because it will advance your career. The test must be that if you didn’t volunteer then the organisation would not employ someone to do it in your place, surely?

38. RedHeadFashionista on February 2, 2011 at 9:40 am

    @CareersPartnershipUK You would think that, wouldn’t you? They must have gotten a LOT harder in recent years if graduates are underqualified to do them now. Ah the saturation of the job market…

39. gugu on August 10, 2011 at 3:16 pm

    The point is,(please correct me if someone disagrees)arry the cost of jobs they can’t afford to pay for anymore. So they are shifting their own deficit on to the studnt graduates (in debt no doubt).
    If people stick together and refuse to work for them like this, then the businesses will be forced to take their own deficit, and pay rightfully.
    Unfortunately, more wealthy students or internationals are taking the places, leaving the poor students (who have no way of being able to take them on) jobless.
    Searching for jobs now, young, poor, in debt graduates, already burdened by the weight of the deficit are left looking at job boards filled with internships and unpaid voluntary positions.
    It disgusts me.
    A lot of these unpaid positions are within the arts, sport and fashion industries I think (not quite sure). This ties in though with the cuts. Just proves how they like to shift their own cuts/debt on to the jobless graduates. Unfortunately, I think this generation of graduates are going to carry the hardest weight through their lives. I’m betting on no pensions too.
    Please let’ get rid of internships and voluntary roles.