POOR ADVICE IS OFFERED AT THE WRONG TIME AND PLACE, SAYS EXPERT
**This is a guest post by Anne Wilson, careers coach and founder of Graduate Job Mentor**
How prepared will this year’s 350,000 new graduates be for the real world? Do they know what it takes to get into their chosen field? If they graduate this summer and don’t have a clue what they want, is there someone close by, trusted and knowledgeable, who can act as a sounding board for their ideas?
My experience suggests that many students are being offered the wrong sort of careers support, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, before they are emotionally ready for it.
Undergraduates are notorious for suffering from ‘ostrich syndrome’ — burying their heads in the sand when it comes to thinking about careers. Will spiralling tuition fees change that? I doubt it. Careers advisers say that students should come to them in their first year, rather than leaving it until their final term. Of course they should. But graduation seems light years away and life after university isn’t ‘real’ until it happens, is it?
After graduation, back in their home town, comes the panic. “What sort of job shall I go for? What do I need to do? Why didn’t anyone tell me it would be like this?” Worried parents nag, proffer tentative advice, and bitch to their friends about the grad staying in bed until late afternoon. The University Careers Advice Service — fully staffed and stuffed with information — is many miles away. The grad is fast losing confidence and motivation; the parents are losing their minds (and savings).
Even if students were receptive to careers advice before graduation day, are universities providing what their customers actually need?
Sophie, who wanted to be a theatre director, told me, “I went to see the careers people, but they seemed to know nothing about the Arts. They just gave me loads of links to websites.” Jack, who wanted a job in advertising, went to a great seminar on jobs in advertising, but somehow it didn’t help him decide what he ought to do in the weeks following graduation. And Laura’s experience was that “They didn’t listen. I told them I wanted to be in market research and they gave me a list of resources about marketing which turned out to be irrelevant.”
The university careers service model isn’t fit for purpose. It seems to be based on giving facts and information sources rather than helping students assess where they are, showing them how to research effectively and explore their options. Some services may lack the resources and/or skills to do this – or is it simply that this is how it’s always been done?
The students I see are all at different stages and have different needs. Sophie needed help in understanding what a theatre director does, how you become one and whether she had a chance in hell. She needed to be put in contact with the right people. Jack needed guidance in assessing his skills and interests and knowing which companies to approach and how to approach them. Laura needed someone to help her consolidate her knowledge of market research and build on it.
Why can’t graduates access appropriate careers services in the town where they live? Why can’t careers services work out how to offer graduates the type of help they need when – and where – they need it?
The graduates I see are struggling to make informed decisions about their future. Entering a hostile, recession-hit job market fraught with obstacles (including unpaid internships), they need better advice than they are getting. And, considering the sums of money they’ve just shelled out on their university degree, they deserve better advice than they getting.
It’s time for university careers staff to start listening to their customers — and provided a service for them that actually works.
*Does university careers advice need a total re-think?
Where did you study – and what help were you offered? Do you agree that today’s graduates deserve better advice and support than they currently receive – especially considering the rising cost of a university degree?
@Anne Wilson
Thanks so much for writing this important piece. Like you, i’m seriously worried about the quality of the help being given to the 350,000 students who are about to graduate into a pretty dire jobs market this summer… From what many of Graduate Fog’s users say, the advice and guidance just isn’t working for them.
I’m not saying that providing career advice is easy – I actually think it’s very difficult, especially given that the world of work is now changing so FAST! But I do think that universities need to start thinking more about what would be helpful to their customers (students / graduates) rather than what makes sense for them.
What’s happening at the moment is a bit like a shop putting out its stock in the boxes it arrived in, rather than thinking how best to arrange it so that the goods are appealing and easy to find for their customers… When you’re providing a service, you’ve got to put the customer first. I think a lot of it is basic empathy. How is a 21-year-old feeling about the future? What do they already know about starting their career (usually, not much?!) What would be most useful for them, at this stage in their thinking?
Although some universities are better than others – The Careers Group at the Universit of London are good, so is Paul Redmond at Liverpool, and one of GF’s users says the Uni of Hull were really good – the services are not standardised so can vary wildly from uni to uni.
The stakes are so high now that we really need to get this right. Good careers advice has never been more important.
Whilst I haven’t experienced how every careers service operates, I can tell you that the majority are trying to face the challenges of modern-day careers advice head on. In my experience, careers servicse are constantly trying to improve their provision, adapt to the changing student profiles they are confronted with and deliver a comprehensive service to all stakeholders. As a group of professionals they continually put themselves ‘out there’ to criticism through meticulous evaluation of the resources they offer (web, events, appointments, drop-in, careers library etc) and strive to meet the needs of their students. I don’t think there is a service in the country that would tell you they have no improvements to make, because by the very nature of the job, they strive to continually evaluate and modify the provision available.
I don’t feel it’s helpful to make sweeping statements about services not being ‘fit for purpose’. We should be doing more to encourage students and graduates to take advantage of their careers service, not make them think it’s a waste of time visiting.
It’s extremely interesting to read Anne’s take on graduate career advice services.
I’d like to add a couple of points:-
Re “The university careers service model isn’t fit for purpose. It seems to be based on giving facts and information sources rather than helping students assess where they are, showing them how to research effectively and explore their options.”
The reason why careers services focus on providing careers INFORMATION rather than careers GUIDANCE is because they’re not funded to do the whole job properly (and haven’t been for the past 20 years or so).
Providing careers information “per head” is a relatively cheap option – the same resources can be of use to zilions of students and you may be able to safely use non-professional, less well-paid staff to deliver the service.
By contrast, it’s very costly to use professionally trained careers advisors on one to one guidance work (and you can’t do good quality guidance unless you use trained professionals who work one to one and spend at least half an hour, preferably more, with each individual).
Also, it’s usually helpful to include good quality psychometric assessment – delivered by a qualified psychologist – as part of the careers guidance process. I understand the university careers services can no longer afford to recruit / use occupational psychologists.
I feel the university careers services do the best job they can within totally inadequate funding constraints. They don’t provide a “good enough” service for individual students but these failings are the fault of their paymasters, not their own.
For interest, our intensive graduate careers advice programme costs £405 and we work very hard for our money to deliver a good service. We know our fees are very competitive. Just imagine how much more the university careers services could do for each student if they were funded to the same level!
I must admit that I don’t see the sort of organisation that Anne is describing. Most HE careers services (with teams covering the wide remit of Careers Education, Guidance and Information) are staffed with experienced professionals many with HE careers guidance qualifications which supplement many years of industrial experience in Careers Guidance/HR/Training/Coaching/Tutoring. Also staff hold an array of qualifications in psychometric measures. Career Planning is, in many HE institutions, embedded in the curriculum and if not, careers advisors deliver a variety of workshops to all academic schools to drive forward this theme. Mock assessment centers are run as are mock interviews, insight into management residential courses, internship preparation, careers fairs both real and virtual, employer workshops; this list of what a careers service provides to pre-entry, undergraduate and postgraduate both home-grown and international, is endless and innovative. Staff in HE careers services are well served to deliver bespoke services to their target audience. I have only been with an HE careers service for 7 years now and am constantly amazed with the dedication, professionalism, energy and drive that careers advisors have – they can remain impartial and support the client for as long as it takes as they are not constrained by the ‘bottom dollar’ of the client, a point that is missed by Anne perhaps.
Just as a matter of interest, how much research do careers services do into the way students perceive and use their services? Is there any objective information out there about student levels of satisfaction with the careers information they receive – or the careers guidance they would like to receive?
It is in Anne Wilson’s personal and professional interests to undermine the services offered in universities to their students and graduates, as she needs to generate business for her own company.
Her article shows little understanding of the range of services supplied by universities now, for example, we are not bound by physical location when phone and e-guidance is offered and websites and virtual learning environments are interactive. Anne’s negative annecdotal evidence could easily be matched by many positive ones. Universities take their responsibilities about graduate employability very seriously and students and gradutes should be encouraged to make good use of the resources available to them within their academic curriculum and beyond.
@Anne Wilson
Careers services do lots of research into what their students want/need from us. With responsibility for marketing and comms for a careers service, I can tell you we regularly ask students to review both the information and guidance they have received and satisfaction levels are alsways very high, particularly in response to one-to-one guidance sessions.
The difficulty can be, as with all market research, understanding the perceptions of those who don’t make use of the service and it’s an area we are always putting effort into trying to understand more about. I am actually about to embark on a peice of research with prospective students in the aim of understanding what their preconceptions about careers advice before coming to university are, so that we are best placed in responding to them from the offset. Hopefully this will help to engage them earlier in the cycle.
I would be very interested if anyone knows of any other research, I have yet to find anything published publicly.
@ Shona
The research below may be of some use to you. The links are rather old and I’m leaving it to you to check whether they still work.
I’d be very interested in seeing the results of your own research – and I’m sure Tanya would be pleased to publish it on GF!
* Young people’s views on finding out about jobs and careers — British Youth Council, NCB and Young NCB online survey.
The HTML link to the report itself still works (the pdf one doesn’t) — it’s
http://www.byc.org.uk/asset_store/documents/careers_advice_and_guidance-final_151009.pdf.
@ All
Well it seems the careers professionals have spoken! But graduates, what do you think? is uni careers advice working for you? Or does it need a total re-think?
@ Tayna
Well as a finalist I have been using my university’s careers service in a variety of different ways. Picking up magazines like Prospects and Total Jobs when I pass by, going to career events and CV workshops in addition to having one-on-one guidance meetings.
My university (Warwick) has in my opinion a very dedicated and professional careers service, and whilst they explicitly say that they can’t magically get me a job, the advice and information offered has helped a lot.
Its down to us graduates to go and get the jobs we want, don’t blame the careers services for letting us down or being stuck in the past – there are plenty of other places to point fingers first.
Good blog. 2 quick(ish) points.
Point 1: Being negative never helps. Like others, I want to hear the grand ideas for achieving better results. Having spent the last 24 months visiting at least 50 university careers services, all are developing to meet the needs of graduates, working as effectively as they can with often restrictive budgets. Having also worked with a large number of commercial careers providers (including graduate career coaching, corporate outplacement and welfare to work firms), the capabilities and standard isn’t notably different, although the commercial co’s are usually able to ‘sell’ their proposition better.
2: I’d like to see a shift towards the requirements of employers. The employers are the buyers. We need to help collectively figure out how to meet their needs – getting beyond the usual suspects of the Top 100 grad employers, since most don’t work there. How many employers have you spoken to about their staffing needs in the last month? A crude, but valuable measure and exactly the sort of measure corporate employees are held to.
@All
Sorry but i’m just not getting this… If the university careers services are doing such a fantastic job of providing what students/ graduates need, then why do I get so many graduates emailing me saying / asking things like this:
– I want to do something creative but i don’t know what yet
– I don’t want a boring office job
– I haven’t decided what I want to do with my life yet
– I can’t find any ads for graduate jobs where I don’t need experience – why is that?
– How am I supposed to work unpaid for year to get into my chosen career?
– Why are there no paid graduate jobs available in my sector?
– I’ve missed out on all the graduate schemes – what on earth am I supposed to do now?
Also, new stats from Internocracy also show that only 10% of graduates know that unpaid internships are illegal – why is that? And for that matter, why are some of you promoting these opportunities through your own careers services – Cambridge and Greenwich are just two that I know about – when AGCAS very clearly says you shouldn’t be doing this?
Who are all these graduates on the Guardian careers forum who have no idea where to turn for real, useful advice? I am frustrated that so many careers professionals are so unwilling to accept that there is a problem here. Perhaps you could spend half an hour reading the posts on this forum and then tell me that you’re still convinced you’re doing such a brilliant job?
I also have very serious questions about careers services’ relationship with Prospects – supposedly the ‘official’ graduate careers website. I will shortly be publishing an interview with AGCAS chief Anne-Marie Martin who has promised to clarify this situation. In my opinion, the ‘official’ graduate careers website sucks. So why does it dominate the market as it does? A lot of people feel that Prospects’ relationship with you lot way too cosy (one GF user called it ‘a total stitch up’) – and it’s the students/graduates who miss out because of it.
As for Anne having an agenda to turn graduates away from their uni centres, I think this is an unfair accusation. The reality is that she – and I – see all the graduates who don’t find their universities helpful. You don’t see them, because they don’t come in. Or they come in once and run away because they say what they’re faced with is uninspiring / overwhelming. You don’t see them, but Anne and I can tell you that there are a LOT of these young people out there.
@Shona
As for your idea that it is somehow not ‘constructive’ to air these views publicly for fear of putting students/ graduates off visiting their uni careers service, I’m afraid you have misunderstood the point of Graduate Fog. This is a forum for discussing things honestly and openly. It is not my job to get students to visit their uni service – it’s yours. What is my job is to make sure that the things that people are talking about among themselves (including how poor some universities’ services are) are given a wider airing, through this website. You are of course free to disagree – but we are free to publish whatever we like. Welcome to 2011! ; )
I know you all think I’m arrogant for daring to question the way we dispense careers advice, especially since I have no formal training in this. But isn’t it also pretty arrogant of you to assume that anyone who dares to suggest there may be a better way of doing things is being ‘unconstructive’?
@Nick
Thanks for your comments – glad you have found Warwick Uni’s service helpful. Alas, careers services are not standardised and I have heard hundreds of graduates say that theirs was overwhelming / uninspiring / intimidating. (And no, I have no idea why they’re not speaking up today! Where ARE they all?!)
As for your point:
…I agree 100% that grads should take personal responsibility for getting heads around what’s going to happen next after university. However, I also feel strongly that university careers advice is not working for a lot of students. And I think that these services have a responsibility to make sure that their services ‘speak to’ ALL students, not just the super-organised and focussed ones who already have a clear idea of what they want to do next.
I also agree that there are plenty of places to ‘point the finger’ – have you READ GF’s coverage of the internships issue?! – but I do think that university careers services have an important role to play in the graduate ‘situation’ that is going on right now. And frankly I think they could be doing a lot more to help. Like Anne, I think we need a complete re-think on what careers advice should look like. The world of work is changing so fast that it is hard to keep up – but this is no excuse for pretending something is working when to my mind, it isnt’ working. (NB this isn’t just my opinion – it’s based on the emails I’ve received from 100s of grads since writing my book and launching this website. I also meet you whenever I go to university careers fairs, which are organised by universities. It’s funny how the universities think the even has been a huge success, when I reckon about 50% of students/ grads come away feeling worse then they did when they arrived.)
@Catherine Reynolds
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion – that’s why i’ve approved your comment. But so is Anne – and I am entitled to publish that too!
But in my opinion the careers professionals’ defensiveness when questioned about your work (as seen here) does you no favours. Do you honestly think you are reaching / serving ALL your students?
Also, I’m sure you didn’t mean it like this, but your comment:
…slightly implies that there the number of grads who would say positive things about their uni careers services ‘matches’ the number who would be negative. Does this mean that you are currently serving only half of your customers adequately? I’m sure this isn’t what you meant to imply… But out of interest, what % of students / graduates would you say a) ever use your uni service and b) say they find it really helpful and inspiring?
@CareersPartnershipUK
You know I usually agree with you, but I think this:
… is a poor excuse for offering a poor service. I don’t believe that good careers advice needs to be expensive. I think it needs more imagination. I have spent less than £500 on this website (the only other cost has been my time) and I get 100s of emails from grads saying it’s the most useful resource they’ve come across in helping them get their career started…
@ Catherine Reynolds
It is in Anne Wilson’s personal and professional interests to undermine the services offered in universities to their students and graduates, as she needs to generate business for her own company.
It is also in my professional interests to link up with University (and Sixth Form College) careers services, discuss common interests and share best practice – something I would love to do – but every one I have approached has had exactly the same defensive reaction. “We’re doing a great job and we’re not interested.” I have particular expertise in helping students with special needs apply to University and graduates with special needs apply for jobs – but again, no interest. Strangely, tutors tell me off the record that they often feel that many students with special needs slip through the careers service net…
Thanks for your response Tanya.
To clarify, I didn’t say it wasn’t ‘constructive’ to highlight these issues, I said it wasn’t beneficial to make ‘sweeping statements’.
Fundamentally, I think many careers services are trying to do the things and make the changes you claim we are so poor at accepting. We are continually striving to understand the needs of our changing client base and accept we are not reaching all of the students all of the time BUT we are constantly working to improve this. By the same measure, can you say that every student who encounters GF goes away with all the answers they are looking for? And what about those who have never engaged with GF, are there graduates out there saying ‘I wish there was a forum for discussing things honestly and openly’ when it comes to careers advice?
What I am trying to put across is not a response to defend all careers services (or attack the merit of what you are publishing) and say we are all perfect — I don’t believe we are, but one that shows we are well aware of the areas we need to improve and we are striving to do this.
Your comment that it is our ‘responsibility to make sure that their services ‘speak to’ ALL students, not just the super-organised and focussed ones who already have a clear idea of what they want to do next’ I couldn’t agree more with, it’s what we try and do every day.
What I do feel strongly about is that careers services need to respond to the needs of their clients, and if they aren’t , they need to change. It’s just not always that easy to find out what those changing needs are — doesn’t stop us trying though.
Believe it or not, we are always willing to look at new ways of delivering services, and always ready to listen to constructive feedback.
@CareersPartnershipUK
Thanks for the link, if anyone else is interested in accessing this report, check out http://www.byc.org.uk/Research-Reports under ‘Young people and employment’
Just to confuse people- I too, am called Anne Wilson! At Warwick, we will be offering a programme of sessions and 1 to 1 support during the latter part of the Summer term- in response to Finalists in particular, who may have decided to leave their career planning until after their exams. Not all students choose to engage in career planning earlier than this though we do try to encourage them to do so. It’s up to both students and graduates whether and when they wish to access our services and many do. We continue to offer a face to face and virtual serice-by phone or e mail guidance to those Warwick graduates who require support once they have left. Our services continue to be offered free of charge to our graduates. Many graduates will find, if they check, that they can continue to receive guidance from their former University Careers Service- so it’s worth checking what you can access. Many provide a free service. Some Universities have a reciprocal arrangement whereby graduates can contact the University closest to their home and so may be able to recieve information and guidance through this route. Each year at Warwick we conduct an online student satisfaction survey of students to seek their feedback on our services. We generally get a response from 1,000+. We always listen and respond where we can to make service improvements to our students.
You know, this might not be a huge point in the scheme of things, but referring to students as “stakeholders” and “clients” isn’t perhaps the best choice of words to use if you’re trying to attract them into using your services. It sounds a bit “corporate-speak” and not overly welcoming…
I think this is an interesting point you make Clare…perhaps it does feel somewhat corporate. I wonder though, with the advent of increased fees whether students themselves might view themselves in this way.
To all those who love having a go at HE careers services and who imply their small scale charged services or websites are providing a better service a few important points:
No-one is saying HE careers services are perfect or can’t be improved but to act as if there is nothing right about them is simply propaganda for those who seem to relish endlessly attacking them. However there are real issues for the HE sector in terms of equity, diversity and scalability of careers & employability provision for all students and resources are a key element of that.
There is a lot of good careers & employability development practice going on in universities across the UK and not just the few larger or more famous ones. All of them are required to be accredited under the matrix standard for guidance services which includes evaluating these services and responsing to student, graduates and employer feedback.
Even the best resourced services have relatively small teams working hard on delivering new ways to support their many thousands of students. Smaller ones often have a tiny team trying to provide tailored services for huge numbers of users. Very few have time to get involved in challenging blanket criticisms of the kind so popular here.
Both government and university funders and managers believe that IT is the answer to squaring the circle and of course IT is already providing many innovative approached to HE careers work. However, we all know students get very frustrated by simply being referred to websites, so whether it is Graduate Fog’s or anyone else’s, websites alone are not the answer.
Anne Wilsons’ original post shows very clearly what many students want (but few can afford anymore in the publicly funded services) is detailed individual advice & guidance. The comfy photo of her with her cup of tea personifies the old fashioned approach to guidance perfectly.
Cutbacks in HE funding will make things worse not better and that is not the fault of those hard-pressed and caring professionals who are providing the best services they can to the majority of users.
The unrelenting negativity about HE careers services, clearly based on little real up-to-date knowledge of what is actually happening in universities, just looks like protectionism for the private providers who want to promote their “personalised services” for tiny numbers in the greater scheme of things, for fees that most can’t afford.
Finally rather than stirring up this endless gloomfest, let’s support rather than undermine the good work going on and really focus on all offering the best services we can to students and graduates across the UK within the very scarce resources available to offer all of them the support they deserve.
@Margaret – thanks for your comment. Would it be okay for me to say which Margaret you are? I think it’s relevant but don’t want to abuse my powers as a moderator! (I can see your full email address but other users can’t)
Thanks again for joining our debate – I know we don’t all see eye to eye on everything but I think it’s so important that these conversations are happening somewhere!
Tanya
I was told to wade in, so…
When I went to my university’s careers dept I found that they were great with the absolute basics (helping me with the initial draft of my CV) but they simply don’t have the knowledge or the manpower to be all things to all students. This was made obvious when I took my CV to a recruiter and they ripped it to pieces. Several redrafts later…
Since a university is supposedly meant to equip students with all the tools they need to succeed in the real world, there is a startling lack of attention paid to the careers centres (I went to Birmingham, incidentally -I don’t know what it’s like elsewhere). No wonder so many of my friends chose further study – there seems to be ample guidance for that. But that does rather imply that the university is not 100% invested in the future of its students outside of the university and more in its financial gains should said student, given the choice of an uncertain ill-advised career in the real world and a blissful year of further study, be blamed?
There definitely needs to be an overhaul of the system – more investment in the careers dept, more external resources and, most importantly, a clearer explanation for the students of what they can expect from this. Most of the people who staffed the centre were first-jobbers in their early twenties and, no offence to them, but what do they know about careers?
From personal experience, as a graduate of an arts degree and having worked in the careers department of a UK university in an administrative capacity for a year alongside professional careers advisers I must say that I completely agree with this “I went to see the careers people, but they seemed to know nothing about the Arts. They just gave me loads of links to websites”. Both my partner and I were fobbed off in exactly the same way as were countless others who came to the careers advisers requesting advice, assistance and guidance on career opportunities for humanities graduates.
What particularly annoys me about the situation in this particular university (which I’m sure is similar to others)is that a great deal of funding had been channelled into providing beautiful, brand new, modern facilities and resources for the careers service and yet, the single most important aspect of the service from the perspective of students, i.e. the knowledge and expertise of the people being paid to provide advice, was not being improved, updated and perfected as it should be. In short, they didn’t know anywhere near enough to do their job effectively. The careers adviser specifically tasked with working with humanities graduates was heard, on more than one occasion, saying that she would simply refer graduates to prospects(.ac.uk) if she didn’t know enough about their query/chosen career path. In most situations, following the consultation with the student/graduate, the advisers would return to the office (where I worked) and google the query presented to them (as they knew so little about it) and would later e-mail the student a series of (often highly irrelevant and basic) links, which the student, most likely, had already come across in their own research. This is not acceptable and yet I saw it happen over and over and over again. Clearly these people are not being trained and educated as they should be and we are consequently wasting our money by funding them. Something needs to change.
“What’s happening at the moment is a bit like a shop putting out its stock in the boxes it arrived in, rather than thinking how best to arrange it so that the goods are appealing and easy to find for their customers”
This is very true, in my experience. The attitude is: “this is the way we work, this is what suits us, this is what we think is effective so this is the way we will continue to function”. Notice all of the “we”‘s in that sentence and a total lack of the words “students”, “graduates” or “customers”… There is also a general sense of superiority and aversion with regard to students, among some career professionals.
Times are changing, the world is evolving, the numbers of students are increasing at a frightening pace etc etc. Yes, providing careers advice is a difficult and challenging profession. But then so are lots of other professions! Many careers advisers do seem to be moving with times, attempting to develop their skills, update their knowledge and genuinely care about the important work they do. However, unfortunately, this does not seem to be the general rule and the “ostrich syndrome” is rife in the world of careers advice; it’s very easy to dismiss and discredit the concerns presented regarding the effectiveness of university careers departments when you are in a salaried position and feel that the criticism is unwarranted. But it is highly immature and unprofessional to do so; only by taking onboard this criticism and making the essential changes, will both sides be successful in their aim.
I agree with Shona that it is essential to attract students and graduates to the service rather than pushing them away by discrediting the work done there but at the same time, a great deal of the time, it is not websites like graduate fog or online debates like this which are keeping students away; it’s the opinion of their fellow students who have used the service themselves and have left feeling disappointed and let-down. From personal experience in the two universities I’ve studied at, there was a general consensus among humanities students that if you could use the internet resources available effectively and were resourceful and independent, then you could achieve a lot more on your own in terms of researching career options and opportunities than by visiting a careers adviser. In most cases, students formed this opinion from personal experience of having used the service. Of course, there are exceptions and of course, some people do have a very positive experience of using the careers advice service BUT far too many people are falling through the cracks and being let down and left uninspired by out-of-date, mismatched and poor quality advice.
I find it fascinating that the people who have experience in working in this industry and have commented here are defending their profession using the argument that their work is continually “evaluated” or “monitored”. This is certainly true in so far as there are quality benchmarks which have to be met there are codes of practice in place, quality assessments and so on which do occur. These generally assess the internal functioning of the system. Consequently careers professionals waste a huge amount of time putting files in the right place and labeling boxes and doing general admin work in order to pass these assessments. Organisation is clearly key to the success of any organisation BUT I would argue that customer satisfaction is more crucial and it is the opinion of those using the service that should be monitored and used to evaluate the success of the service rather than relatively arbitrary clerical benchmarks. With regards to the following query:
“Just as a matter of interest, how much research do careers services do into the way students perceive and use their services? Is there any objective information out there about student levels of satisfaction with the careers information they receive — or the careers guidance they would like to receive?”
Research is absolutely done into this. Questionnaires are given to students following their individual consultations with careers advisers and they are also provided with questionnaires regarding the general resources/facilities available as well. Students are invited to rate/assess the services provided. However, interestingly, unlike the external processes which take place, the results of which are generally made public, the results of the assessments actually made by students themselves are not (as a rule) made public…. And I can tell you, again speaking from personal experience, that these feedback forms often contain a great deal of useful and constructive criticism which is rarely taken on board. A note is made of the overall tone of the feedback and then the form is filed away. Very little is done in terms of actually valuing this feedback and making changes based on the suggestions made by the users of the service.
Maragaret just reminded me of the name of what I was referring to in my last point. The AGCAS Matrix standard (http://www.agcas.org.uk/pages/73). It assesses HE careers services and in my opinion takes up a huge portion of time for negligible benefits (to students). Being “Matrix certified/accredited” is seen as a major quality benchmark and as I said above, there is nothing wrong with this sort of initiative, but I just believe that it should be coupled with comprehensive, transparent evaluation of student satisfaction.
“The unrelenting negativity about HE careers services, clearly based on little real up-to-date knowledge of what is actually happening in universities, just looks like protectionism for the private providers who want to promote their “personalised services” for tiny numbers in the greater scheme of things, for fees that most can’t afford.”
My opinion is based on up-to-date knowledge gained through working in a university careers department as well as by studying at two different UK universities and using their careers services. I am not selling any service or product related to this industry and am only interesting in seeing improvements made in the sector because I personally felt let down by the careers services I experienced and saw many people in the same boat.
“Finally rather than stirring up this endless gloomfest, let’s support rather than undermine the good work going on and really focus on all offering the best services we can to students and graduates across the UK within the very scarce resources available to offer all of them the support they deserve.”
The tone may come across as overly negative here but I think that is due to many of us feeling relieving at finally having an arena in which to express and share our disappointment and frustration with regard to HE careers advice. The criticism here is meant to be constructive and is meant, in general, to encourage those working in the industry to reflect on their professional shortcoming, take onboard the suggestions being made and improve their services. It is not meant to be a place where graduates complain and careers advisers defend their interests and reject criticism. It is undoubtedly a tough job and one which is incredibly important; it’s for this very reason that we, as recent graduates and graduate fog users, want to see HE careers services go from strength to strength and to respond accurately and effectively to the needs of their users.
@Margaret
I am well aware that providing excellent careers advice for heavily indebted graduates entering this fast-changing world of work is no easy task! But I also believe that what we have at the moment is not working for a large number of graduates.
How do I know this? Have I visited every uni careers service in the country? No, of course not. But the reality is that people like me – and Anne Wilson – are the ones who see all the young people who your services have been unable to help (or off-putting to use).
You say:
Look, I know that careers advisers are lovely people, but it is not my job to give you endless supportive PR when I have serious questions about how well your services are working. Whether you like what we’re saying or not, I – and Anne – and the graduates who have commented here have the right to have an opinion – believe you and your careers colleagues should lose the defensive attitude and start listening to what we’re saying as we’re uniquely placed to give you an idea of what is going wrong. (Yes, I am aware of how arrogant that sounds, but it’s the truth.). I have no doubt that you help lots of graduates every year – but there are also a lot of graduates who you don’t help. And it is important that they are not forgotten. I believe they may even be the majority, rather than the minority.
Have you seen the sort of thing that people are saying on the Guardian careers website?
http://careers.guardian.co.uk/graduate-jobs/forum
I spent a year answering their questions – the Guardian paid me on a retainer – £300 a month, if you’re interested. Clearly they thought there was a problem here – and that I could add a lot more value than a traditional careers adviser, or they would have got somebody from AGCAS to do it.
Please stop denying that these graduates exist – because they do – in huge numbers.
So I’m going to keep saying it, even though I know you don’t want to hear it:
The service you’re providing simply isn’t working. It’s not working. It’s not working, it’s not working, it’s not working…
PS. Who says university careers advisers don’t have a sense of humour? Your comment about us small fish being guilty of ‘protectionism’ made me laugh out loud. Do you really have no idea that this is what EVERYBODY has been accusing the uni careers advisers and Prospects of for YEARS?! A friend who runs an excellent advice website – with far better content than Prospects – was told by universities that he could not have a stand at their careers fair because they consider him ‘competition’ to their own services. If that’s not the dictionary definition of protectionism, I don’t know what is!
So, what would help?
Those graduates and students who are commenting on here about their experiences of a poor careers service, what would have made it better? What should the careers service be doing differently?
All those people who have had poor experiences or poor advice, did you go back in and tell the careers service? Even by email? If I have given a student or graduate advice that wasn’t helpful to them, or they felt an interaction with me was a waste of time, I would far rather they (as well as telling their friends about it, which of course they will do!!) told me – as then I will know it wasn’t helpful.
And if there is something you think would help careers services reach students – say so (please!). Maybe then we will have more satisfied students – isn’t that what we all want?
@Ghislaine
Good question. For a start:
1. Stop fobbing graduates/students off with links to websites we could easily find ourselves. Alternatives to prospects.ac.uk (the careers adviser favourite) are DESPERATELY needed and it is vital that more relevant, focused, up-to-date and frankly, useful, sources of information are disseminated and promoted among students/graduates.
2. Provide advice and resources which are up to date, of use to students studying both vocational and non-vocational degree subject, and of use to those who already have a very clear idea of the industry in which they want to work and well as those who don’t at all.
3. Careers advisers need to focus on improving their knowledge and expertise in two main areas:
-the current situation regarding (local, national and international) employment opportunities in the industries (linked to the degree subjects offered at their particular university) which they are supposed to have specialised knowledge of. This is particularly important for humanities/arts subjects and all non-vocational subjects.
-the necessary (up-to-date) contacts, resources and sources of information to enable graduates to learn more about their potential career paths and the opportunities currently available for applicants with their particular educational background.
4. Advisers must have specific, targeted and up-to-date knowledge, contacts and know-how with regards to the job market and how graduates from THE SPECIFIC DEGREE PROGRAMMES OFFERED BY THEIR INSTITUTION fit into it. This is particularly crucial for humanities/arts/non-vocational degrees.
In the university I worked in there were dedicated careers advisers for each vocational subject area and only ONE working for students studying in the following departments: Institute of Theology, Schools of Languages, Literatures and Performing Arts, Music and Sonic Arts, Sociology, Social Policy and Social Work, History and Anthropology… Now, I would like to hear how exactly one person is supposed to have, to quote myself “specific, targeted and up-to-date knowledge, contacts and know-how with regards to the job market” for students on degrees in ALL of these departments…?! There is a vast range of career options which are open to students who study non-vocational degree subjects and in my opinion they are being failed by the university career services they are paying to support. It is unfair to expect one person to be able to assist students from such a wide range of degrees and it is, from my own experience and that of others I know who graduated with non-vocational degrees, all but a waste of time to see an adviser who clearly knows very little about the specifics of the industries/career-paths open to graduates of humanities/arts degrees. The advice doled out is generic, inefficient and useless to all- prospects.ac.uk and applying to the graduate schemes offered by the “Times Top 100″ and the likes were listed as some of the main “action points” in far too many consultations with said adviser.
I also feel that careers advice departments are there to expose all the opportunities and possibilities which exist, particularly to non-vocational graduates, who may have very little idea as to the industries open to them. Careers advice should help graduates to initially find their way and get their bearings in the confusing world of work, and not necessarily to get them a job they will keep for life. The situation is undoubtedly improving but I feel that exposing the dissatisfaction felt by many students and graduates (read “paying customers”) with regards to the careers advice provided to them through their university is extremely important. Only by discussing the shortcomings of the current situation can we remedy them and improve it in the future.
I would also suggest that you have a look through forums such as this one and the Guardian careers forum to get some perspective on the number of graduates feeling let down and confused by the careers resources they have used at their universities and on the suggestions they have for improvement in this area. I feel that many students may not feel comfortable expressing their disappointment at the level of service provided directly and choose to do so through online forums/blogs/social media. It would, of course, be better if this constructive criticism was aimed directly at the careers adviser/service which the individual had used and I believe that it is the responsibility of the HE careers industry to ensure that students are given the opportunity to voice their concerns and feel free to do so without fear of their concerns being dismissed by overly defensive careers professionals. There must be an appropriate method in place in order for this to occur as I don’t believe that the current systems used are adequate. Despite feedback forms being filled out in many universities, following careers events and one-one-one consultations, I fear that the criticism and suggestions they contain are often not implemented to the degree that they should be.
@Ghislaine
Your attitude is like a breath of fresh air!
I think this is the secret to it really. At the moment the students/ grads who don’t find your services appealing / helpful are just turning on their heel and walking out – and bitching about you behind your backs. I agree that this isn’t helpful – or fair. But it is also a huge waste of valuable information.
No doubt the grads will chip in themselves in a sec, but one of the major complaints that I hear is that grads feel that these services are geared towards the students who already know what they want to do – ie the ones who actually need the help the least! For the rest, they feel – and i’m not saying this is fact, but if this is how they feel, that’s how they feel! – that they are pointed towards a load of books and websites and told to come back when they have chosen what career they would like to pursue – and then their uni can help them further.
At this point, many of them become so overwhelmed that they leave the centre – never to return. Before you ask for stats to back this up, I have none. But this is what they tell me. They feel that careers services feel too much like a library. They are intimidated, overwhelmed, bored, freaked out… They also feel as though they are being asked to choose right now, what they want to do with the rest of their lives (again, this is just how they FEEL – but it’s as important as the facts). You would not believe the number of grads who come to me saying they’ve spent the last three months at home doing nothing because “i haven’t figured out what i want to do with my life yet.”
To your credit, ALL careers advisers that i have met have the same response that I do (that you don’t have to decide aged 21 what you want to do for the next 40 years of your life! most of us work it out as we go along, etc…). However, I can tell you that this message is NOT getting through to a large number of graduates. And it is SO important.
The other message that isnt’ getting through is how much the world of work is changing – and that there is no longer such a thing as a job for life. Too many grads are still thinking that a career is something that you pick from a list, aged 21 and then just ‘do’, climbing the ladder until you reach retirement. In particular, the number of graduates desperate to start a career in music / journalism are blissfully unaware of the huge amount of change happening in these industries – and that there are no guarantees that they will be able to find any jobs in these industries, let alone a job for life…
If university careers advice isn’t fit for purpose then it is all the more of a concern given the makeup of its users. The students most likely to visit careers services are not just the stereotypical Captain-of-Everythings but those who are more likely to face disadvantage in the job market (students with disabilities, who are LGBT, from low-income backgrounds, or whose parents grew up outside the UK). I’d like to know what university careers services feel they offer these users. I’ll hold my hands up and admit I eschewed most careers fairs as an undergrad because I had a journalism postgrad in my sights, but when I did go there, to investigate funding options for said course, the advice was basically: “You have a disability. Excellent! There must be funding for you somewhere!” (No mention of anywhere specific). On the question of career research – everyone knows there are websites, what they need is help making sense of them.
I am a tad confused that quite a few comments are geared towards the response concerning clients that ‘drop in’ to an HE Careers Service. This isn’t the only way that HE careers professionals meet students – each term/semester there is a detailed programme for all academic schools/subject areas to have careers talks, outlining the changes to graduate professions – these are subject linked and kept up to date by careers advisors visiting the various industry professionals who are at the ‘cutting edge’ so to speak. There are countless sector briefings that are disseminated to careers staff to keep their knowledge up to date; not to mention the employer visits that all have to go on to update knowlege/network. Then there are the huge variety of workshops, tailored to suit the schools/departments at the request of the academics/students – workshops that cover employability; skills enhancement; working in subject specific areas – all up to date of course as careers advisors spend a huge majority of their time researching in order to prepare their talks/workshops as professionals in commercial organisations would do. Have I mentioned the employers that regularly visit to deliver bespoke (subject specific) forums or talks? Have I mentioned the managemnet training courses that are run? Have I mentioned that a student or graduate is free at any time to pop in to discuss any careers issue and that if an advisor cannot answer, will find out an answer to that query. Have I mentioned that the student has to attend these talks/workshops/guidance interviews in order to find out the answers to their queries? It is quite right for anyone in any profession to criticise the level of service that he/she has received. It is always best though to ensure that the criticism is accurate, fair and realistic and that it is directed at the service concerned. One needs to know the expectations of the students/graduates equally as the students/graduates need to know the expectations of the service
@Christopher
Although I agree with almost everything you say Christopher, I think this is a tall order for careers advisers – or anyone. I think it’s helpful to focus less on knowledge and more on showing students how to test out their careers ideas in the real world. Shouldn’t the main task of the careers adviser be to help students understand the problem better rather than to try and solve it for them? Careers advisers need to ask students informed, challenging questions which help them gain a better understanding of the sector they are trying to get into and so research it more effectively for themselves. I believe careers advisers also have an important role in helping students understand how organisations work and how to be proactive in approaching them. That’s why it’s vital for careers services to be building as many links as they can not just with employers but with mentors in a wide variety of sectors who would be willing to give ongoing support.
@Anne Wilson
“Shouldn’t the main task of the careers adviser be to help students understand the problem better rather than to try and solve it for them?”
I absolutely agree with you. Careers advisers shouldn’t have to hold students’ hands, so to speak, but at the same time, I feel that, when advisers have been assigned specific case loads and then don’t actually have the knowledge they should have regarding these subjects, the system is clearly failing. The ultimate aim of the advice provided should obviously be to produce independent and self-reliant graduates, equipped with the knowledge required and empowered and inspired to be able to manage their career path effectively by themselves but in order for this to happen they do need a certain level of guidance and expertise (some more than others) and I don’t really feel that HE careers advice is providing this at present, in many cases.
“it’s vital for careers services to be building as many links as they can”
Again, I completely agree and believe that this is not occurring enough, particularly in the arts, as I mentioned above.
When I was at university, I was very naive about the skills and experience required to secure a graduate level role. I did not want to consider my prospects until I graduated and I chose not to attend the numerous events and talks hosted by the university. I studied Politics and had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do, I know this is very common. Inevitably, careers services will not be able to provide all of the specialist knowledge for all niches, teaching students how to research opportunities, select potential employers and target their applications is an important and valid form of a wider guidance offering. Students need to understand themselves and what they have to offer before they can successfully navigate application processes, this is often where a significant amount of resources need to be devoted before a job search can even begin.
I was lucky enough to recognise the value of volunteering while working in temporary employment straight after graduation. The skills I developed through Victim Support, Mentoring and International Environmental Projects were enough to secure me interviews at good employers and subsequently a job that I find rewarding. I realise I was very lucky and have every sympathy with graduates entering the current market.
To achieve success careers services require a commitment and investment from both students and universities. Students that invest in their employability and make use of the services throughout their time at university will be in a strong position when they graduate but, even then, are at the mercy of market conditions. In this environment, it is vital students are encouraged to engage in the huge range of activities and events that a modern day careers service provides, both within and beyond the curriculum. The service that I work for offers talks to potential applicants before they choose the university and is involved in the curriculum from induction week when the students arrive all the way through to follow on services up to two years after they graduate.
Careers advice is a moving target and therefore, should be and is, constantly evolving. To ask the question ‘Is it working for you? Or does it need a total re-think?’ is very simplistic. Universities are full of academics who love statistics and data, therefore careers services have to constantly monitor student feedback and provide empirical data to evidence the impact the service is having on the employability of students. Detailed qualitative feedback from students is also key and responses are discussed in detail.
There is a finite amount of entry level jobs in any professional industry and the bar is often set very high. If every careers service was perfect, which of course they are not, there would still be a number of disappointed graduates. However, at placement level, I have more paid jobs advertised than I have applicants. Completing a year in industry is the best way to improve your employment prospects upon graduating. Unfortunately, completing this year in industry requires students to put a lot of time into making applications, being prepared to relocate, move away from their friends, graduate a year later and cope with the inevitable rejection along the way. Having said this, within the engineering school I work in, we place nearly 200 students a year and the wider service has won multiple national awards, nominated by students, for the service we provide and the multitude of innovative methods we have of engaging students. We constantly try to improve year on year and move with the times to make use of social media and host student centric events. It is a challenging environment and the people I encounter in the sector are far from complacent.
@ Mike
A very refreshing response!
A plea to any student/graduate reading this blog; please tell your career adviser if you’re not satisfied with the advice you’ve been given. This might sound like an awkward thing to do and given the great stuff on this website and Tanya’s passion for helping frustrated/angry/lost graduates, I’m not surprised that you want to tell her about your experiences rather than filling out a dry feedback form or going through some bureaucratic complaints procedure.
However, the only person who can change what I do is me and apart from all the usual things I do to make sure I’m helping students, I need you to tell me. If you don’t want to do it face-face (perfectly understandable) then send an email.
I don’t come into work every day with the intention of providing a crap service to my students. I want to do my best for them and every time I get negative feedback (and I do, because I’m not a perfect careers adviser) I’m devastated and take steps to improve whatever it was that didn’t work.
@Roseanne
You sound like a total goddess. Can we clone you and put one of you in every university careers service in the country please?!
Your point is a good one – of course it would be helpful for students to give you feedback so you can adapt your offering. However, going back to my ‘shop’ analogy used earlier, shops don’t have the luxury of being able to ask their non-customers what would get them to shop at their store, if they don’t already. It requires the shop keeper to do the thinking for them, go and look at what competitors are doing, etc – and try different things and see what works.
When i challenge careers professionals about their work, i quite often receive emails saying ‘well if you’re so smart, what do you think we should do?’. My response is that it’s not my (unpaid) job to sit down and come up with a list of things that they could do to make their offering more appealing. but they are free to have a nose around this website and see what sort of features / advice / discussion seem to ‘chime’ the most with graduates, and then they can take inspiration from that.
HOw many careers services have run proper workshops on the unpaid internship situation, for example? It is clear from thsi website that this is something that is a ‘burning issue’ among graduates. Are you discussing them openly and honestly? are you explaining to them that they are (in most cases) illegal? are you telling them that if they are prepared to work unpaid, this is how to make sure an internship is actually useful.. or this is how to turn an unpaid itnternship into a paid job? if they can’t afford to work unpaid, what do you suggest they do then?
Do you point them in the direction of InternAware, who will give them all the information about their rights? And the TUC’s campaign? and the NUJ’s campaign? And Graduate Fog?
Somehow, I doubt it. But this is what you SHOULD be doing. Responding to what is happening right now, and what matters most to these students.
What about the huge numbers who will graduate this year with a media related degree – and find they can’t get any kind of paid work in this sector, despite their qualification? What are you telling them? Pointing them in the direction of the various trade mags and the BBC’s graduate scheme just doesn’t go nearly far enough…
@MIke
This makes you pretty much like 80% of graduates, in my opinion. I hear a lot of careers professionals grumbling that people like you don’t come in – but not a lot of creative thinking about how to get you to come in and see them – and then whether what they have to show you will send you running for the exit.
Careers folks – the young ‘Mike’ is what most graduates are like. He is not the exception – he is the rule! Organised, motivated, clear-thinking graduates are a rare breed indeed.
So the question is, would anything have got ‘Mike’ to come and see his careers dept sooner? And would what he found have been helpful to him?
For starters, should we even be using the word ‘careers’? Is it too intimidating? What about something softer… Student futures? I’m just thinking off the top of my head here, but you see what i’m getting at… I think this is about empathy. You’ve got to remember what it feels like to be a 21-year-old who’s done nothing about their career and is freaking out about their future. Only then can you work out how to help him.
Careers advice is bad throughout education. I think in schools, it is very weak (probably weaker), often biased or possibly non – existent.
The maturity required to understand careers advice is huge. It can be biased, with an assumption that everyone can live in London. I did not know the skills, qualifications and experience required to get a graduate job, the changing job market. Another issue, there seems to be nothing, concerning disabilities, especially dyspraxia, dyslexia, asprergers, hih functioning autism, dyscalcula). Charities have to improve. People are diagnosed with those conditions often as an adult. People from ethnic – minority backgrounds may struggle.
“Another issue, there seems to be nothing, concerning disabilities, especially dyspraxia, dyslexia, asprergers, hih functioning autism, dyscalcula). Charities have to improve. People are diagnosed with those conditions often as an adult. People from ethnic — minority backgrounds may struggle”
Think of all the comments that have been made hear about the criicisms of university careers services, then if you have these issues as well multiply by a 1000 !
Quite frankly you could take the Lord Tebbit/Sugar approach and say “I never went to university and it didn’t do me any harm” and look at all the “burger flipping jobs that immigrants are willing to do while a graduate lies in their pit”.
I would point out, however, that in the case certainly of neurodiverse people there is more of a mitigation in that other than for really unskilled/ low waged jobs that rise by your bootstaps approach is fraught with difficulties because of how these issues affect them.
This is the sort of conversation I have had: You have dyslexia/dicalculia/dyspraxia or whatever so if you just tried to do any job you would be doing something very low paid/unskilled if not retiring from the dole!
But But the psychometric tersting says “above average to very above average ability. WHY NOT GO TO UNIVERSITY!
So there I am being told i’m university material. I thought I was supposed to be too stupid to do that or anything else and here this educational psychologist says I’m university material. Did you hear that mum and dad. Says I’M UNIVERSITY MATERAL!!!!! Like having been given a knighthood. The kingdom of a proper career and REAL PROSPECTS beckons. Work hard at your degree and you’ll get a good job no bother. The educational psychologists must be right. How could they be POSSIBLY WRONG! Went to university themselves. Must know what their talking about.So do a degree, get a first (Must be on to a good thing here:he he!!) Careers service will sort me out , after all Universities have got special needs departments for people with this sort of thing. Not to worry.See University Careers adviser.Platitude, Platitude. platitude. See websites, see leaflets, see Job centre disability advisers when its doing a degree to escape from these people and NOT return to them because the’ve been useless in the past thats the issue.
Wasn’t told by educational psychlogists about the actual process of graduate selection that works against such people, wasn’t told that careers advisers would know nothing about how these things can effect people in and out of academic study such as time management and being able to drive,wasn’t told very much beyond that I might have the intellectual wearwithall to a degree about the black arts of interviews!
Wasn’t told,hidden disabilities notwithstanding, HOW to be taken seriously out in the world!
In short wasn’t told very much about how to integrate being able to get my head round the works of John Rawls, Robert Nozick,Descates,Edmund Burke,Karl Marx,John Stewart Mill,and some understanding of economics(including its mathematical side) into the REAL WORLD.
Actually thought it was supposed to be like having a fireside cup of tea towards the end with MS Anne Wilson.
Should neurodiverse graduates want to declare a jihad on educational psychology and non Oxbridge university careers services?
As my Alias as Avarice I asked how many visitors from the site are from Oxbridge on the Prospects website? No relies apart from my own saying thats not suprising.
I don’t suspect there are that many here because they get to live the dream and contreversial as it may be to say isn’t the reality that some Universitiy careeer services are maybe more like Fortnum and Mason and others are like the co-op.
Like staying in the Ritz or the Holiday Inn everybody knows INSTINCTIVELY a class act from a mediocre to downright crap act.
Canapes anyone?
As a graduate of 2010 I feel that I can comment on this article with some authority. I really don’t agree with the generalising comments Anne has made about students or careers advice services within universities.
My experience of careers advice services has been a positive one. Stirling University has a careers service which offers reliable and up-to-date advice and information on all manner of things – from writing CV’s and covering letters, to attending assessment centres and interviews. The careers service did MUCH more than just provide facts and snippets of information.
I used the CDC pretty much from the start of my time at university. The friendly staff offered a personal service; one-on-one chats which would help clarify my own thoughts and questions, careers modules which offered the opportunity to complete mock job applications, write CVs and attend video’d mock interviews with real people from industry. The feedback obtained from mock interviews and applications, which were reviewed by people from the ‘real’ world, was invaluable. I therefore don’t understand Anne’s comments stating that careers services are not fit for purpose, and that they need to start listening to their customers.
I would like to add that careers advice is always available when students leave university, or as Anne says ‘when they go home’. Certainly at Stirling Uni a former student can use the CDC for the rest of their life- be it in person or online. Lets not forget that a lot of good career information is available on sites like prospects.ac.uk and these sites can be accessed 24/7 wherever you are. I am still in touch with a careers advisor, one year after graduation – even though I am being successful and have a very good job. (And students don’t always go home, many move on from university very quickly – I graduated on Friday and started work in a graduate job on the following Monday. I don’t believe this would have been possible without my interactions with the careers service throughout my time at university).
I would say that it is the careers advice given in schools which needs attention. The point Anne made about just facts being offered by careers support services is certainly true of the services provided in secondary schools. A stigma forms around careers advice whilst at school – because it is just fact giving. This stigma continues into university and may be effecting student use of the services offered by university careers services in later life.
certain things I would like to ask of Tim Spencer.
(1)Is the job you have a graduate one wether related or not to your degree?
(2)Could you do a non drudge job as opposed to being on JSA
without using your degree?
(3)Do you have good UCCAS points because people can go to university without having any?
(4) Do or can you drive?
(5 Do you not have a hidden disability(see the thread here on neurodiverse graduates)which dosen’t stop you being all over the place in time constrained assesment centres?
There are those for whom they have certain inbuilt advantages wether based on how their brains work or connections which will propel them to where they want to be even if they have a third class degree in Mickey Mouse studies.
They just easily have what employers want to be sold.
And the rest for whom the intellectual effort of gaining a degree is like pissing in the wind without better orientation from careers services if university education isn’t just wasting their time as far as careers and earning is concerned.
Just because it worked for you dosen’t mean their clued up to the needs of everybody. Your the sort they don’t have to put much work into because you didn’t need it(or much) and there are those who can achieve the same thing without going near them for that very reason.
While there are those for whom they could seemingly spend a lifetime there and it would seem make no difference.
It is what they seem like on average to most people who deal with them and who expect better than platitudes and generic advice that ultimately counts.
Hi Avarice,
My boyfriend has dyspraxia and had to overcome many hurdles to get into work. He wasn’t suited to university life, and though he scraped a 2:2 in the end throughout he was incapable of getting anything done to a deadline. This meant he got penalties for most of his late essays. He is intelligent so many people thought he was just being lazy.
Sometimes I have to remind myself to be more patient with him because I am his opposite: highly organised and never forget an obligation.
Now he has a degree it seems clear as day that he wouldn’t suit an office job. He’s much happier using his hands, currently installing marquees, as he gets a kick out of physical work, which he thinks improves his malcoordination. He’d probably have been a lot better off had he not gone to university.
I sympathise with you greatly and hope something comes up
Hi Joddle.
I of course know exactly what you are talking about and in the case of your boyfriend and others like him such as myself it is exactly because underneath it all such people can have as much (if not more) of a brain than most people that the idea of being “university material” is even mooted.
Acording to someone like an educational psychologist yet they know nothing of the world of real recruitment so you can have someone like Tariq who has qualifications to match Tim Spencer with a BSc(Hons) in Mathematics & Computer Science from Birmingham university, a PGDip in a Mathmatical Finance discipline from City University and an additional professional qualification in Statistics.
Yet it has done him no good in terms of a real career and earnings whatsoever.
Whose fault is that? His or those encouraging him to go down the higher education road? If those of us with such issues could expect from intellectual application an actual outcome like Tim Spencer that would be far more than satisfactory.
Otherwise those who claim professional authority when saying such people are “university material” can be accused of speaking out of their backsides instead of their mouths.
What Anne Wilson is saying makes sense, l have thought this for a LONG time – most careers services are APPALLING. They should be focusing from secondary school (maybe even at primary) on what each students values, interests and passions are combined with what they are showing an aptitude for in lessons. This is a subject and qualitative approach – let us not be surprised by this – we are not robots but are unique and complex creatures born with inate skills and abilities but also considerably affected by the environment (social and emotional) we grow up in.
I believe quality careers education should be the most important subject on the school programme – think about it, its obvious really – its the like the rudder that steers the ship otherwise you are just filling a ship (human mind/person)up with lots of information, skills and EXPECTATIONS but offering no training or assistance with charting or steering the ship – it has no direction and will just wander aimlessly – what an INCREDIBLE WASTE.
Work expereince and other types of DIRECT student exposure to the world of work is a key part of this as is KNOWING YOURSELF – yes, that should be the starting point – not for self-indulgent purposes but to genuinely understand the type of person you are, the things that make you tick and things you are passionate about – herein lies the green shoots of finding individual purpose and happiness in a career.
A MASSIVE change is needed in our approach to and the priority (and funding) given to the type of quality careers education l am proposing….but come on folks, lets go for the highest common denominator…for a change
thank you for share this for me
Nice