GRADUATE FOG CHALLENGES CHEAPSKATE MAGAZINE OVER SHAMELESS ADVERT
*NEWSFLASH! TIME OUT’S EDITOR IN CHIEF INSISTS THIS INTERNSHIP IS JUST ‘WORK EXPERIENCE’ – SCROLL TO COMMENTS BELOW*
The events and listings magazine Time Out has advertised for a full-time ‘writer’ intern on their Shopping and Style desk, paying a “princely” sum of just £2 a day, a two-zone travel card, “plus the odd invite to something very exclusive.”
The advert, posted on Gorkana yesterday, says:
Recruiter: Time Out Posted 12 April 2012
Location: London
Job Industry Journalist
Discipline: Intern
Function: Interns / Work Experience
Contract: Type Contract
Hours: Full Time
Salary: ExpensesInterested in becoming a fashion writer?
Time Out’s Shopping & Style Desk are looking for a new intern to start immediately. The position is for three months, full-time (expenses only) at our Tottenham Court Road offices. Candidates must be of at least graduate age and have a genuine interest in (and aptitude for) writing about London’s shops from vintage emporiums, markets and indie boutiques to high street classics and designer flagships. The tone of the magazine is irreverent, and hopefully witty. Unusually in magazine publishing, our interns do have writing responsibilities, and build up a portfolio of printed work- which is why it is essential we find a good one.
You’ll get to experience working on an exciting weekly publication, as well as press days, styling, tweeting, blogging, editiorial research and PR liaison.
This placement is unpaid, but you get a princely £2 a day subsidy for food, and a 2-zone travel card, plus the odd invite to something very exclusive.
If you’re available now for interview, please send CVs, and a 100 word review of your favourite/ least favourite shop in London to shopping@timeout.com.
At Graduate Fog, we don’t usually challenge magazines and newspapers over their use of unpaid interns (as we generally need them on-side to help us publicise our campaign for a fairer deal for interns). But Time Out are unlikely to ever be of help to us, and that ‘princely’ thing has really annoyed us, so we have just sent them this email:
To: Time Out
From: Graduate Fog
Subject: Press request about your unpaid internship
Date: 13 April 2012, 11.54am
Hi there,
Can you please explain why your advertised three-month Shopping and Style Desk internship is not paid a wage?
http://www.gorkanajobs.co.uk/job/10391/time-out-intern-shopping-and-style-desk/
From the job description, it sounds like this person will be doing a great deal of valuable work at Time Out and should therefore be rewarded a fair salary. Surely it is unreasonable to expect someone to live in London on just £2 per day for lunch and a zone 2 travel card?
I will be blogging about this today so would appreciate a swift response.
With thanks
Tanya
We will let you know when they respond…
See the ad for yourself:
*IS TIME OUT’S AD DELIBERATELY INSULTING?
Does the tone of the text suggest that they know their request is arrogant and unreasonable? Should Time Out pay their interns a decent wage for their work?
The position is also likely to contravene the Equality Act legislation, as any person with caring responsibilities is clearly discriminated against due to the low wage.
Might be worth asking them how they square it with their Equality policies?
Time Out will only pay you £2 a day to support a position that by any other company’s standards would be rewarded with a wage upwards of 16K p/a.
I’d like to say they are the only company doing this. But the sad fact is that in the vast majority company’s are now exploiting these ‘Unpaid Internships’, as they become pre-requisite of getting your first job (on top of your hard-earned degree).
That is utterly revolting. Time Out should be utterly shamed of themselves for exploiting a young person in this way. £2 a day wouldn’t pay for the filling of a sandwich and they expect someone who already has graduated to subsidise their budget by working illegally unpaid for them.
The Managing Director of Time Out is David Pepper. What does he have to say about his company breaking the law in this way?
here is the e-mail address for david pepper
davidpepper@timeout.com
e-mail him and see if he would like to work on £2 a day
I just sent this:
Hi David,
My name is Tanya de Grunwald and I am the founder of Graduate Fog, the website for job-seeking graduates.
I am not sure if you are aware but Time Out is currently advertising for a three-month unpaid internship, paying expenses only:
http://www.gorkanajobs.co.uk/job/10391/time-out-intern-shopping-and-style-desk/
Can you explain how you feel this is acceptable? From the job description, it sounds like this person will be doing a great deal of valuable work at Time Out and should therefore be rewarded a fair salary. Surely it is unreasonable to expect someone to live in London on just £2 per day for lunch, and two-zone travel card?
I would also be grateful if you could explain how you feel this internship fits with the national minimum wage legislation, which I understand states that anybody doing the job of a ‘worker’ must be paid at least the minimum wage for their work (currently £6.08 for over 21s).
With many thanks
Tanya
PS. I have already contacted your editorial team but am yet to receive a response.
Good for you Tanya. I’d like to know how this multinational, successful company can justify paying someone £2 a day. I’d also like to know what HMRC think about this flagrant abuse of the Minimum Wage regulations.
@tanya
i got the e-mail address by putting in google david pepper time out
and this link page came up
http://www.timeout.com/about/
this is were i got his e-mail address if you are wondering
matthew
@Derrick
Derrick, don’t go into a legal career.
The Equalities Act covers the protected characteristics of:
age; disability; gender reassignment; marriage and civil partnership; pregnancy and maternity; race; religion or belief; sex; sexual orientation. (s.4 Equalities Act 2010)
There are no visible equalities issues here.
The issues with this advert relate to clear contravention of the National Minimum Wage Act 1998, as it is likely that any person undertaking that internship would be construed as a worker under an implied contract of employment and £2/day+travel would be (hugely) lower than the required age-appropriate rate of NMW.
I actually can’t believe they used the word “princely”. I can just picture some fat-cat-fashion-tw*t sat at a computer as he posted this, laughing heartily at all the young and impressionable interns who WILL respond and WILL do everything he says and WILL do it for free. Terrible.
Pretty disgusting that they even put 2 quid a day on there.
Apparently they’ve now pulled the advert (and rightly so).
I used to work there and I had a great experience, I got to do and see a lot of things- transferable skills that I could take with me to a job interview and I was never asked to make tea or coffee. Time Out was a really nice office to work in and I dislike the way people have jumped on this bandwagon without knowing the facts. This is the internet after all so I can’t say I’m overly surprised.
For me it was the ideal opportunity to bolster my CV and build my weak portfolio before I graduated. Many internships I had worked at previously didn’t pay for food, some not even travel so I don’t really understand why such a fuss is being made all of a sudden because they are more worthy targets. I highly doubt the use of the word ‘princely’ was meant sincerely, if anything I would hazard a guess that it is highlighting the fact that they are aware that it isn’t great. I don’t know how much people are aware of the current climate for graduates trying to break into the Journalism industry but it is extremely hard. There are sucessful oldschool hacks who have been in the game for decades but are being made redundant because that is the current climate out there right now. I don’t believe in unpaid internships, they are not fair but faced with not being able to work in the industry that I want to I have been prepared to work for free.
@Jen
You don’t believe in unpaid internships, but you’ll quite happily exploit your advantages and undercut your less-advantaged peers by undertaking them?
Regardless of your experience, it still contravenes the National Minimum Wage Act. That’s the bottom line. That’s what the fuss is about.
Nobody doubts it will be a great experience – but it’ll be a great experience for those with the advantage of being able to work for free — Oh, I’m sorry, I mean for £2 a day plus travel!
If you don’t think National Minimum Wage and social mobility is important, then I regret to inform you: You are part of the problem, not the solution.
@Jen
What Craig said. How can you say you don’t believe in unpaid internships, and then moan at people for “jumping on a bandwagon”?
I’m so very sorry for supporting equal opportunities and wanting talent, not financial situation, to decide who jobs go to!
Just because YOU’VE benefitted from unpaid work doesn’t make it worth supporting or right. No-one is disputing the value of the experience so I don’t know why you gave us a summary of the benefits.
@craig
Hi Craig.
I don’t believe in them, I don’t think anyone does that has been in that position?
What advantages? I don’t have any advantages, I’m guessing you’ve made the assumption I live with my parents or that they somehow financially keep me afloat?
I could point out scores of unpaid internships to you if you want? You act as if this is the only one you’ve ever seen?
So to solve this situation tell me how I can get a paid job as a journalist, because I am dying to know.
@Jen
Graduates trying to break into any industry right now is difficult, not just journalism. And it is something that isn’t helped by unpaid internships. No-one is denying that the experience is valuable (any work experience is) and that it may be a good place to work, but there are a lot of problems with unpaid internships
1. You were fortunate enough to be in a position where you could work unpaid, many are not. For these people, getting a job in journalism is even more difficult because they just simply cannot afford to work for free. Getting certain jobs becomes about your ability to work unpaid (i.e. how wealthy you are) and not about ability.
2. Unpaid internships are making it even more difficult to get a job. Why on earth would they pay for someone when they have access to graduates who will work for free because they have to? Entry level jobs are disappearing and being replaced with a continued conveyor belt of graduates willing and desperate enough to provide them with free labour in the hopes that they will gain enough experience to get a job.
@Jen
Please enlighten us on how you could undertake unpaid internships without any advantage then.
The only assumption I’ve made is *I* couldn’t undertake an unpaid or expenses only internship, so you must be in a more advantaged position than me.
This is not the only one I’ve seen — I can assure you, I’ve seen many more than you could possibly imagine. But this one? This is a particularly bad one. One of the worst, actually.
I’m not a careers advisor, but if I wanted to go into journalism, I’d get into the habit of writing for the hell of it. I’d set up professional looking blogs with high quality and consistent content. I’d get networking on LinkedIn and Twitter. I walk through the business districts of London, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Leeds, Where ever, with a sandwich board across my chest that read:
“I am a graduate. I am looking for a paid job in Journalism. Can you help me out? Enquire within!”
I would stand there every day for a week, a month, however long it took. I’d letter drop, I’d make sure that everyone knew “CRAIG IS UNEMPLOYED AND NEEDS A JOB IN JOURNALISM AND I WON’T ACCEPT NO FOR AN ANSWER”.
There’s lots of things you can do to stand out from the crowd. Graduates who undertake unpaid internships are basically saying “I have no creativity”.
Now my dear, I don’t work for free, so if you require further careers advice, you’ll have to pay my fee of £6.08 per hour.
“For me it was the ideal opportunity to bolster my CV and build my weak portfolio before I graduated.”
Can I take from this that you were a student and living off a loan? I’ll assume you either had extra funding (in the form of a bursary) to cover all of your expenditures (rent, food etc) as the standard maintenance loan does not usually cover all of this (It certainly didn’t for me anyway!) Or did you have a job at the same time as interning? If so, how did you manage to do both? Do you really think everyone has the option to work for free on top of studying a full-time degree? Let alone if they had a paid job as well!
I don’t think we should criticise Jen here (although I also don’t think she should be defending TimeOut). She took advantage of opportunities that were there for her. It doesn’t matter how she supported herself through it. We should be focus on those businesses who make it so that she had to support herself at all.
Jen you are correct in saying this is a larger issue than just Time Out.
Unpaid labour that uses an individual’s skills to benefit a company, dressed as ‘work experience’, is rife among smaller businesses (mostly in the city) because it is cost effective getting young people/ interns to do these jobs (sometimes exploiting their naivety and even their knowledge of youth demographics to their advantage).
However it is up to the large corporations to set a working standard to the others and no matter how brilliant Time Out’s internship programs are, they must abide by all workers rights and laws.
MTV for example runs numerous 3-6 month Paid Internships, almost one in every department, which is great. Just because someone is with a company for a temporary period does not me they are not entitled to payment or equal rights.
@Jen
Thanks so much for commenting. As you can see from these comments, emotions run high on Graduate Fog when the subject of unpaid internships comes up!
Siobhan makes some excellent points and I agree with her 100%.
As we’ve seen, it’s really easy for interns to turn on each other. But I think it’s also really important that we remember who the villains are here. It is NOT the graduates who take unpaid work because they are desperate. And it is not their parents, who may offer to support them financially during their unpaid internships.
It is their employers, who continue to profit – yes profit, you are free, your work has value – from this practice which has been allowed to spread out of control. HM Revenue and Customs are in charge of policing the minimum wage law in this coutnry, but they are simply not doing this for interns. They are aware of the problem but have so far done practically nothing at all. That is shameful. Similarly, our politicians are also aware, and they have done practically nothing either. That is disgraceful too.
We need better education among young people about your rights – and why it’s so important that you stand up for them. The universities could be doing a lot more on this front, but again, they have done practically nothing either.
With Intern Aware, Graduate Fog is about to launch a new campaign which will push for not just awareness, but also justice for interns. After years of this rubbish, we’ve had enough. The intern ‘debate’ is over. We say, let’s start prosecuting.
If you’re new to the site, make sure you sign up to the News Bundle, follow us on Twitter @GraduateFog or Friend us on Facebook/GraduateFog
We’re going to need your help spreading the word about this! THAT’s what you can do change things : )
@ Craig – was thinking more of associative discrimination which is covered under the Act. It would apply with caring responsibilities relating to recruitment.
Here’s a related example. http://www.xperthr.co.uk/blogs/employment-tribunal-watch/2010/09/equality-act-2010-countdown-7-associative-discrimination.html
I was living off benefits, submitting freelance copy to magazines(which I was paid for and had ok’d by the job centre) I had previously interned at whilst studying- I completed 6 different ones whilst I was a student and still came out with a 2:1(luckily!)
Whilst I was a student I worked nightshifts in nightclubs- on average 30 hours a weekend and saved the money so that I could afford to do unpaid work once I had graduated.
I do think people can intern and do unpaid work experience whilst studying, I managed to do plenty whilst holding down a part time job.
@Craig I appreciate what you’re saying but you’re not telling me anything I don’t know already.
@Tanya
“As we’ve seen, it’s really easy for interns to turn on each other. But I think it’s also really important that we remember who the villains are here. It is NOT the graduates who take unpaid work because they are desperate. And it is not their parents, who may offer to support them financially during their unpaid internships. ”
Tanya, as much as I understand your point, and our fellow graduates are (correctly) not the true villains, I don’t agree with your point entirely.
The complaicency amongst some graduates to undertake unpaid work without questions IS part of the problem. Of this, I am absolutely certain.
Employers are mostly to blame, but graduates do not help themselves OR each other.
It’s classic tragedy of the commons.
If we want employers to change their attitudes and values, then graduates need to change theirs first.
“I was living off benefits, submitting freelance copy to magazines(which I was paid for and had ok’d by the job centre)”
Really? I did the same thing while on benefits and had all earnings deducted from my JSA, leaving me no better off.
I really don’t want to pick apart other people’s earnings – I’m just trying to make the point that things aren’t so simple for everyone. Unpaid internships are available only to people who have ways of supporting themselves (whether it’s savings, family, luck, not being ill etc) so by definition they are unfair.
Also, I have to agree with Craig – if we’re going to stand together on this one, it does mean that those who undertake unpaid internships need to start thinking about who they’re hurting by perpetuating their existence. If everyone refused to do them, the companies would have no choice but to pay their staff. I know realistically this is unlikely to happen overnight but I can’t just sit back while other people let their privileges run over other people’s rights.
@Sarah
Yeah I got that but it didn’t effect my housing benefits and on occasions I could earn more freelancing than JSA. Otherwise I would have been screwed.
But do you really think if every graduate suddenly boycotted unpaid internships that every media employer would then make loads of paid jobs available and then they would hire graduates with no experience?
If a change is going to come from anywhere it should be from the Government or an employment authority.
“Yeah I got that but it didn’t effect my housing benefits and on occasions I could earn more freelancing than JSA. Otherwise I would have been screwed.”
Still not quite getting it! They told me if I ever earned more in a week than I got on JSA, I’d have all of my benefits cut off and I’d have to take up my entitlement to housing benefit with the council which could take months.
“If a change is going to come from anywhere it should be from the Government or an employment authority.”
Quite possibly, but what we’re seeing increasingly often now is a backlash against the anti-internship movement from young people who fervently believe that either a) they’re not good enough to be paid for their work so any opportunity, even unpaid, is a godsend or b) that they’re in the position to work for free therefore everyone else should be and they should shut up moaning!
The fact is companies did used to hire graduates with little or no experience in entry level positions which have all but disappeared. It’s only more recently we’re seeing a shift towards the attitude of “You can’t work here unless you’ve got a year’s experience” which eliminates a lot of people who haven’t had the chance to GET that experience.
I believe that everyone needs to come together on this, from graduates refusing to sell themselves short to greedy employers to the government committing to fair wages for fair work.
NEWSFLASH! Time Out have just responded with this:
Thoughts?
@Sarah
I never had that problem? I don’t really know many people that have been in a similar situation and encountered it tbh.
I love it when organisations trot out the ‘but you are doing more than making coffee!’ line. That makes it worse not better! These quotes should be used as evidence to HMRC to demonstrate violations of NMW legislation.
How often do we have to listen to businesses argue that their internships are useful? Yes the work experience is useful, as I said before, any work experience is useful, but it doesn’t change the fact that if an internship is unpaid it severely limits accessibility. I’d love to do an internship with a magazine in London, but I can’t afford it. That means my chances of getting a job in that industry are limited as those who can do it have a better chance of getting paid employment because they have the experience.
@Sarah @Craig – It’s a nice idea that all unpaid interns would just down their tools and stand up for a noble cause, but they, like us, are just doing their best to obtain the job that they want, taking advantage of the opportunities that they have access to. I don’t think they should be blamed for that.
Go back to them and ask them why its not work?
There are no learning outcomes, no qualifications are offered neither is the work experience affiliated with any educational establishment. Placements are given to students and those categories, not those who have left their studies and are now seeking paid employment as Tim Arthur contends.
Given that the job description describes responsibilities and tasks would Mr Arthur kindly explain why this is not work and how such unpaid work fits in with the Equalities Policy of Time Out given its discrimatory impact.
@ Craig – did you read my response?
That response from Time Out (put out in desperation when they realised they were under the spotlight for their employment practices) does NOT answer the funadamental important questions – are these interns expected to do real work for the company? Are they given responsibilities and hours to attend? Does their work benefit the company, and if the work was not done by these interns, would it have to be done by a paid member of staff? And if the answer to these questions is yes, why are these people not being paid the legal minimum for their work?
Happy to be put right on these points but I don’t see any of that in their statement. So come clean David Pepper – do you use interns as unpaid workers or not?
Stop trying to muddy the waters with smokescreen answers about people needing this experience to build their careers and give straight answers to straight questions.
Removed the ad but not removed the job. Come clean, Time Out – are you going to use someone as an unpaid worker in this position?
“It’s a nice idea that all unpaid interns would just down their tools and stand up for a noble cause, but they, like us, are just doing their best to obtain the job that they want, taking advantage of the opportunities that they have access to. I don’t think they should be blamed for that.”
Unpaid internships do give you an unfair opportunity above people who aren’t able to do them. I’ve volunteered at various organisations for most of my working life – I don’t have a problem with that at all, as voluntary positions are not replacements for paid jobs, they’re much more flexible and the charity/org is very accommodating of different needs (illness, childcare, paid work etc). They’re also not a fast-track to employment within the company or a similar company – I don’t have an unfair advantage over someone else because I volunteer because it’s not necessarily a way to get your foot in the door while other people are left out due to their circumstances. I think the key phrase for me is “taking advantage” – it’s not fair to do that if you’re perpetuating a system where other people will be left on the bottom rung through no fault of their own.
“I never had that problem? I don’t really know many people that have been in a similar situation and encountered it tbh.”
Honest to god, that’s what I was told – I’m mystified and quite angry that the job centre threatened me with benefit sanctions if that wasn’t even part of the rules! They said that I had to be careful to keep my earnings below £53 a week or I’d be over the limit and would be cut off from everything inc housing benefit. Everything I earned would be deducted from my benefits, and I was no better off in the end financially.
That “princely sum” thing is just awful. 2-zone travelcard? As a southerner-turned-Brummie, I don’t know London outside the centre that well, but I’d imagine rents are pretty high in much of Zone 2 as well?
I did wonder why the media’s exploiting of unpaid and below-NMW interns is rarely mentioned on here, though I suppose that could be seen as a pragmatic reason. I also get a bit annoyed at the hypocrisy involved whenever a newspaper does publish an exposé on unpaid interns – for all we know, any of those exposés could have used research from, or other direct or indirect contributions from, unpaid labour.
Have you interned unpaid for Time Out – or any other well-known brand? Fancy some free money?
Check out Interns Fight for Justice – the new campaign from Graduate Fog and Intern Aware. We are looking for interns who are feeling brave / angry / skint enough to challenge their former employers and request the wages they are owed for the work they did unpaid.
Even if your internship was a while ago and you agreed to work unpaid at the time, that doesn’t matter. The minimum wage works out at around £1,000 a month, so depending on the length of your internship you could be in line to receive a tidy sum!
Just get in touch with us for more information:
https://graduatefog.co.uk/2012/2080/interns-fight-justice-campaign/
Thanks!
Graduate Fog x
PS. None of this will cost you a penny!
Hi Tanya,
Just wondering how we get in touch as it’s not clear on the linked page? I’m currently interning at quite a big magazine (sans compensation) and am labelled on the masthead as “intern”. It’s been over a month (which I think is a clear breach of the law) and haven’t even had a sniff of paid work. Some interns have been there for six months.
I’d be mortified at the thought of taking anyone to court, but I would be up for at least a confidential discussion…
Great to read everyone’s opinions on here.