EVEN TOP UNIVERSITIES OFFER POOR ADVICE, SAY JOBLESS GRADUATES
A senior figure in the world of university career advice has admitted that the industry must do more to help graduates into work, as record youth unemployment statistics were announced last week.
It’s no secret that Graduate Fog thinks university careers advice is in desperate need of a total overhaul. What’s currently in place clearly isn’t doing the job. At a time when a degree has never been cost more — or been worth less — the quality of care and advice that students and graduates are receiving simply isn’t good enough. Graduate unemployment is a huge problem — as is the spread of unpaid internships. Yet careers services are failing to equip young people for the reality of finding a job in 2011.
The good news is that after years of pretending everything is fine, it sounds as though they are finally starting to admit that there is a problem.
In response to the dire youth unemployment figures released last week, Anne-Marie Martin, president of AGCAS (the Association of Graduate Careers Advisory Services), said:
“A degree alone is not a passport into a graduate job and it isn’t right for everyone, but to compete internationally, the UK needs a more educated, skilled and flexible workforce.
Consequently, the job prospects of graduates – and especially those who take advantage of some of the many opportunities both within and outside the curriculum to gain experience and learn relevant skills – are much rosier than those of 16 and 18 year old job seekers, and look certain to remain so.
However, we need to make sure that prospective and current students have access to genuinely helpful information and advice when making career and course choices. And, we need to ensure that all young people develop their employability skills alongside their subject knowledge.”
We think many unemployed graduates will agree that careers services have a lot of work to do in making themselves a useful resource for today’s university leavers . Here, recent graduates from some of the UK’s top universities tell us why their careers service simply didn’t deliver…
“No-one told me that interns should be paid”
Tom graduated from Manchester University in 2009 with a 2.1 in Philosophy, but no idea about his rights to the National Minimum Wage…
“In my final year, I went to see my university careers service to ask for advice about getting into publishing. A careers adviser told me I would probably have to complete some internships – but gave no information about my rights to be paid for my work. Nobody mentioned that there is a massive fight happening for interns’ rights and that I should get informed and the battle. Did they not know – or did they just feel it was too political to mention it? Either way, I think it was their duty to inform me. After graduating, I did three unpaid internships (totalling eight months). I now realise I should have been paid for these, as I had set working hours and I had a proper role within the company. If I had been told about my rights as an intern by my careers service then I would have known this before I applied for those internships and I wouldn’t have done them. My careers services really let me down — they should have given me better information about my rights. It’s disgraceful that only 10% of graduates know that unpaid internships are illegal.”
“I would have used the careers services if they were better advertised”
Adam, who graduated with a first in English from UWE Bristol in 2010, says his university careers service was badly marketed…
“At UWE the careers services were very poorly advertised. There was a section on our university website, but I never visited it. If you compare how other events and services are advertised on campus, the careers services are pathetic. I think if they were more proactive about encouraging students to use them they would have a better chance of helping graduates with their job prospects, which is what they are paid to do. I needed help with my CV, but I ended up asking friends and relatives for advice — I didn’t even think to visit the careers department. I think that says a lot.”
“The first time I was approached by my careers department was on my last day at university”
Charlotte, who graduated with a 2.1. in History from Sussex University in 2010, says her careers department should have approached her in the first year — not her final year…
“During my last lecture at Sussex, the careers department came in to give us a Power Point presentation. It included what a bullet-point list of transferable skills History graduates should have and a list of industries which might favour applicants with a history degree. Most of my friends had already been applying for graduate jobs for six months before this presentation, so it wasn’t providing us with any new information or any practical advice about where to find jobs. That presentation might have been helpful in the first year, but was almost completely useless at that stage in our education. With unemployment rates as they are, it is the job of university careers services to provide us with regular sessions of practical advice throughout our degree. Otherwise, what are they being paid to do?”
“They didn’t have enough appealing jobs on their books.”
Amy studied Geography at Leeds University and graduated with a first class honours degree in 2009. But her careers department failed to attract enough large employers to recruit graduates from her university – and she is still unemployed…
“Our careers department did advertise a few jobs, but hardly any were very appealing. I think that the careers department should actively seek out the kind of jobs that graduates will want, by building relationships with the big recruiters. I’m sure that they do this to a certain extent, but not nearly enough. It would be fantastic if the careers services acted like a job site — it could be the first place that graduates visit to find work after graduating. I have never seriously looked at their website to find work, because I know that big recruiters use other job sites more than they use university careers departments.”
“They didn’t show me how to make my degree appealing to employers”
Jack got a 2.1 in media studies from Brighton University in 2009. His careers service didn’t give him enough help with marketing his degree to potential employers…
“Degrees like media studies now have a bad reputation in the jobs market – which is why careers departments should be going the extra mile with to teach us how to overcome employers’ prejudices and sell ourselves as useful employees. The advice I received about writing a CV was generic – not tailored to my type of potential employers. If I had received better advice I think I would have found it easier to get a job after graduating. They should be giving each student a unique service. They didn’t teach me anything I couldn’t have found easily on the Internet.”
*Did your university careers service help you find a job?
Did they teach you that most unpaid internships are illegal? Did they help you find the best vacancies for your chosen career? There’s no need to name-and-shame (unless you’d like to!) – we’d just love you to share your experience!
All things being equal, I don’t think changing the Graduate Careers Advisory Service will achieve anything. Unfortunately, whereas the Government continues to invest in College and University Training and Reachout, and Students are now mandated to take out prohibitive Liberal Student Loans (approaching £9K per annum – ending up with overdrafts approaching £50K-£60K after 3/4 year study), employers are allowed to do nothing.
How many students at College and University are sponsored ? How many students end up with placements at College and University ?
If employers don’t do anything, they on the one hand cannot condemn Colleges, Universities or Graduates, and cannot blame anyone but themselves for Skills Shortages/Deficits arising.
Within the UK, 95% of SME’s comprise less than 250 employees. Ignoring micro businesses (1-5 staff), perhaps the Government should simply make it mandatory of Business Managers within SME’s to contribute to training (including providing sponsorship or placements), but if they do not, simply impose a Training Levy (say £9K per annum per 50 employees).
In 2002, the UK Productivity Gap was of concern to the Labour Government, and research was commissioned to investigate the factors giving rise to the UK Productivity Gap, with a failure to match our more innovative foreign competitors. Unfortunately, analyses of the evidence suggested that Business Managers within UK SME’s had become absolutely ANAL on the subject of short term financial issues, at the expense of long term strategic commitments (such as R&D, Innovation, Human Capital, Training).
As a Careers Adviser I find this feedback very interesting. I don’t work for any of the Careers Services mentioned but it would be my expectation that they will look carefully at these comments and see where improvements may be made.
In some cases these services may be doing their best with limited resources, but I hope they will be able to use these comments to push for more resources, more cooperation from academic departments etc.
Feedback from non-users and those whose experience of their Careers Service was poor is vital to helping us improve. In some cases criticisms which are made may not be valid, but Careers Services can only come to that conclusion after careful consideration and having taken all complaints and negative feedback seriously. I hope all Careers Services will be keen to do so.
To pick up on one specific point, there are certainly reasons why Careers Services may find it difficult to be openly and actively ‘political’. Primarily Careers Services feel they have a duty to ensure their advice is ‘impartial’. This is intended to give students confidence that they are receiving advice that is focused on their (the student’s) best interests – not those of employers, the University, pressure groups etc.
However, information giving is not political. It would be entirely appropriate for a Careers Adviser to tell a student interested in publishing that the use of unpaid interns in that industry is widespread. However, the adviser should also (indeed, has a duty to) inform the student that such unpaid internships are, almost exclusively, against the law. Informing students of their rights is a crucial part of giving effective and impartial advice.
Incidentally, it would be interesting to hear Graduate Fog users’ views on whether Careers Services are right to have this focus on impartiality. Is this something that is important to you?
I read your article with interest and would like to address the point of unpaid internships in an effort to help your readers reach an informed opinion and take something useful from the article, rather than simply feel that all Careers Services are terrible, which I hope you agree is not a constructive position as it may encourage less usage of services when students in fact need us more than ever.
Speaking on behalf of the Careers Service at The University of Manchester, I can say that we challenge employers where necessary on the issue of minimum wage, and make it clear that we will not advertise positions which we believe should be paid. We have interesting conversations with some employers who don’t feel positions should be paid, after all ‘it’s just work experience’, and they are disappointed and sometimes annoyed when we point out that we won’t be advertising their 12 month unpaid sales job. This is a side of our work which students don’t (and don’t need to) see. Many other Careers Services I speak to have a similar position, so rest assured we are on students’ side when it comes to the issue of being paid for work you have done!
What doesn’t help however is that fact that in some industries like the media it is the culture to have unpaid experience, and the recent government guidance on unpaid internships has actually clouded the picture, rather than clarified it. This means that when we look at what should and shouldn’t be paid, it’s very easy for an employer to think it’s ok not to pay. So really the government has not tightened this up as Careers Services had hoped.
A careers advisers role is to help inform and advise students in an impartial manner, certainly, but it is also to facilitate the student’s own decision making, and to help them choose their path. In the absence of clear government policy on unpaid internships, sadly it’s down to individuals to decide whether they are happy or willing to work unpaid to get experience. It may not be fair, but that’s the current picture, and whilst we may not agree with unpaid internships or advertise them through our Careers Service, careers advisers are aware that if we say ‘no you shouldn’t do them at all’ then does that ultimately help a student or hinder them? It may mean they aren’t able to enter that career at all. We can help you reach decisions, but can’t make that decision for you.
In Tom’s case it’s difficult to comment, not knowing the full background or Tom’s real identity. A careers adviser should generally raise the issue of unpaid work if its pertinent to the discussion, however in a typical appointment there is much ground to cover and it is not possible to provide information on everything and every career option someone might want to discuss in 30 mins. We advise students to follow up appointments with their own research and provide information on where (websites etc) they can start this process. Then it is the student’s responsibility to undertake this research and come to their own conclusions/decisions about the path to take, with follow up help from us if they would like it.
In an effort to help students become familiar with the issues, several years ago we developed a section of our website about employment rights, unpaid work experience and how to spot scam jobs, which we encourage students to read:
http://www.careers.manchester.ac.uk/students/findingwork/employmentrights/
Tom, it seems didn’t look at this but we hope it can be of value not just to Manchester students but any other students reading this article.
Rest assured, that despite the general tone of the article, Careers Services are there to help students and try our best to do so. So do use us! Best wishes
Scott Foley
Work Experience Manager
The Careers Service, The University of Manchester
“sadly it’s down to individuals to decide whether they are happy or willing to work unpaid to get experience. ”
Absolutely incorrect, a worker cannot cede their rights to the NMW…So you fail to tell them this and then leave it up to the student to do their own research?…and this is publicly funded by the UK taxpayer, you are required to give good advice, from what I can see you seem to want to obfuscate your responsibilities and the advice is somewhat erroneous.
@ Scott Foley: I think it would be useful to tell students about positions your careers service has refused to advertise (and why) in the interest of transparency. I understand that any work is hard to come by and I can make my peace with that, but I have real difficulty applying for jobs through agencies/intermediaries and anything advertised on a career services website because I don’t know if that is a genuine/fake job. My opinion is that there needs to be legislation on this issue (as if that is likely to happen now!). I would hold in high esteem any careers service/agency which publicises the “behind the scenes” correspondence with employers. No doubt the counter-argument is that employers will boycott your service, but sincere employers should not mind and students would appreciate maximal transparency.. leading to X university garnering an excellent reputation for its career services and enlightening graduates on career possibilities.
Dear Rebeccah, that’s an interesting idea. We do have a clear and public policy on vacancies we will advertise and what we won’t but for those we deem not appropriate (suspected scam etc) it may be of benefit for students to see the names of the companies we haven’t approved. We must bear in mind the threat of libel however, as I am sure you can imagine. Will look into the feasibility of this suggestion…thanks.
@Scott Foley
You say:
What part of the minimum wage law is unclear to you?
I’m not saying you should tell students and graduates they shouldn’t do them – i agree, that’s not your job. but it IS your job to inform them of the facts – which are that most unpaid internships are illegal. AND that there is a huge campaign going on to enforce the NMW for interns.
Obviously most of you would rather die than direct them to Graduate Fog (why would you, when Prospects effectively pays you to direct students to them) – but you could direct them to Intern Aware, who have an excellent website with masses of info that they should need, and as far as I’m aware have never been rude about you on their blog (!).
You could even (shock horror) do your own campaigns to raise awareness about the facts on internships, among your students and grads. Why don’t you do that?
@Scott Foley
I hate to break it to you, but not a single 21-year-old is going to read a section of your website called “Employment rights and issues”. And where is the bit that says “Did you know that most unpaid internships are illegal?”
You should be shouting about this from the rooftops, not tucking the information away in a corner of your website, or waiting for students to bring it up during 1-on-1 consultations.
I’m sorry, I don’t mean to be rude, I just find it so frustrating that you guys are in the perfect position to help with this campaign and help your students, yet you seem completely unable (or unwilling?) to get your act together.
@rebeccah
I agree – i think students would be really impressed to know that their university says No to some employers, and why…
@ScottFoley – See? transparency is the order of the day…
Can i just ask how this advice given in the `advice` section – how to understand recruiters, goes with your campaing ?
How can I stand out from the competition?
JC: “Demonstrate that you have made the best of the downturn and gained some experience that’s relevant to your future career goals, even if it’s an unpaid internship or volunteering.”
Appreciate your response,
Regards,
Tanya, I congratulate you on such a positive and constructive blog. Provided with the option to present a balanced and well argued piece you instead assume that universities and Careers Staff are the root of the problem, and somehow set out not to do their job/couldn’t care less about the plight of students looking for work. On both counts you couldn’t be further from the truth as we exist to help as many students as we can, and I am sure your readers are not convinced by your rather black and white approach to what are very complex problems. Careers staff are there to help students, full stop, so your tone is completely unnecessary.
We both agree that unpaid internships should not be considered acceptable. However, what you don’t seem to appreciate is that in an era of increased competition for jobs, until the law is completely watertight, some employers will take their chances as long as some people are prepared to work unpaid. Although it’s not right, some students and graduates do this and until no-one is prepared to do unpaid internships, students and graduates may decide not to rock the boat for fear that they get left behind and may get no experience at all. This is unacceptable that they are not paid if the work should be paid, but it’s the reality at the moment. I can assure you that we do provide a lot of advice to students on this issue, so picking Tom’s experience and assuming that it represents the entire university (or all universities?) just isn’t statistically valid.
If you think the official internships guidance is very clear, you need to read it properly. It permits employers to potentially have ‘volunteers’ undertaking work without pay, it doesn’t matter whether they are called interns or anything else, as intern is not a legal term. It’s the presence of a contractual arrangement, employer obligation to provide work and other things which determines if it should be paid minimum wage or not. More information for your readers here:
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1096811537&type=RESOURCES
http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/BISCore/higher-education/docs/C/11-1068-common-best-practice-code-for-quality-internships.pdf
This loophole/grey area has not been closed and it is still being used by employers, despite most careers services blocking vacancies being advertised through them, and lobbying the government to have complete clarity and remove this possibility of unfair unpaid work. The government may talk tough on one hand about paying people but then it provides a loophole to allow this.
You commented:
“Obviously most of you would rather die than direct them to Graduate Fog (why would you, when Prospects effectively pays you to direct students to them) – but you could direct them to Intern Aware, who have an excellent website with masses of info that they should need, and as far as I’m aware have never been rude about you on their blog (!).”
You assume a confrontational stance where none is needed. We direct students to any resources which will help their query and provide helpful, accurate and constructive advice. This includes hundreds of websites and sources of advice, which may or may not include your blog! We review this frequently, and if there is constructive advice on the other websites you list, we will consider pointing students in their direction. As for Prospects, they do not pay us, the site just provides a lot of really good advice (much written by careers professionals across the UK with input from professionals working in various fields), so it’s one of the best sources we can direct students to. There isn’t anything more to say on that.
Regarding your other points on the information on our site being buried, we have an extensive website covering a huge volume of information which students want and need. Unpaid internships is one topic among many, and we review our website content and structure frequently (with student input) to aid visitors in finding what they are looking for.
I hope that you receive other balanced and positive comments on this article, as due to the tone you have taken I don’t feel there is any point in commenting further. Best wishes to everyone.
Scott Foley
well said Scott, a well constructed, balanced, unemotive response to a complex set of issues
Good grief. What a pathetic, uninspiring, and self-pitying group the graduates interviewed for this article seem to be.
I studied abroad so I can’t give an opinion on university careers services in the UK. However, as a HR Manager within a charity* I am horrified by the attitudes displayed by the young people in this article.
I have read the comments made by each graduate several times now, and I continue to be amazed at the level of immaturity shown.
I also think, Tanya, that you have hit the nail on the head with your comment: “…not a single 21-year-old is going to read a section of your website called “Employment rights and issues.”” You’re right, the type of whiny brats who expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter (such as those who are quoted in this article) are not going to bother reading that article. Which is a shame, because if they did and therefore took an ounce of responsibility for their own life, then they would actually learn something useful. You are correct, it’s not a very interesting title for an article. But this is the real world, and important things are sometimes not very interesting – which is something graduates should get used to.
I have something to say to each of these young people:
Tom: No-one told me that interns should be paid.
Me: Tom, you are clearly intelligent. You got into university and you graduated with a 2.1 degree. So don’t you think it’s reasonable for it to be expected of you to do some research of your own into National Minimum Wage if you felt you should have been paid during your internships? No one ever achieved anything by sitting around waiting for other people to tell them what to do.
I also suggest making sure your job applications are free from poorly-constructed sentences such as the following that’s been attributed to you: “Nobody mentioned that there is a massive fight happening for interns’ rights and that I should get informed and the battle.”
Adam: I would have used the careers services if they were better advertised…[t]here was a section on our university website, but I never visited it.
Me: Adam, that is the worst excuse for laziness I have ever heard. Clearly you were aware of the careers services and of their website – yet, as you freely admit, you never visited it and nor did you ask them for help with your CV.
You have a first-class degree so you obviously know how to work hard, think critically, write well, and argue your case. So for pete’s sake, why didn’t you apply some of those attributes to getting the best our of your careers department?
You need to help other people to help you, not just sit around waiting for them to come knocking.
Charlotte: The first time I was approached by my careers department was on my last day at university…[m]ost of my friends had already been applying for graduate jobs for six months.
Me: Charlotte, what was stopping you approaching the careers service yourself? From your quote, it seems like you expected them to deliver a job to you without you having to lift a finger.
Further, if your friends had already been applying for graduate jobs for six months, why had you not been doing the same thing? Do you feel entitled to having a career provided for you by someone else without you having to work for it (and no, simply getting a degree doesn’t count as “working for it”).
Amy: They didn’t have enough appealing jobs on their books.
Me: Amy, you have a first class degree. You are not academically stupid. But if you think you are going to walk straight into an amazingly interesting job straight out of university, then you are sorely lacking in common sense.
“Appealing” jobs are not handed out to anyone at all – you have to work for them, and you have to actively try to make your job as interesting as possible. There are very few inherently boring jobs – but there are plenty of people who make their jobs boring by refusing to make the most of the opportunity that each job offers.
You also sound like you think you’re entitled to skip “starting at the bottom” just because you have a degree, but you aren’t. Stop being so narrow-minded and high & mighty about what sort of job you think you “deserve” and look at the bigger picture and what a “boring” job/company could offer you in the future.
Jack: They didn’t show me how to make my degree appealing to employers…[d]egrees like media studies now have a bad reputation in the jobs market.
Me: Yet another one complaining that he wasn’t spoonfed. Jack, you appear to be aware that media studies degrees have a poor reputation. So why did you decide to do one?
Secondly, having made that decision and already knowing that it wasn’t attractive to employers, why weren’t you more proactive in getting the assistance that you realised you would need?
For what feels like the millionth time: stop being lazy and waiting for help to come to you – seek it out, ask for it, and take some responsibility for yourself.
So, to sum up to all of you: You’ve got a massive chip on your shoulder, but you need to get over it and stop feeling sorry for yourselves. The world doesn’t owe you anything, so get your act together, grow up, and start acting like adults. The recent graduate I’ve just hired fresh out of university managed it**, so you can too.
————————————–
*Tanya, before you ask – no, I don’t use unpaid interns and no, I won’t tell you where I work or enter into a discussion about it. It’s not my
place to point the finger at other charities who are doing the best they can with extremely limited resources.
**Sans unpaid internship, you’ll be happy to know.
“A careers adviser told me I would probably have to complete some internships” The Role of the careers staff is to provide some support which means providing some basic information to the students. The careers staff should mention the right to pay. It is pointless to have careers staff and a waste of money paying them if they can’t even provide a bit of basic information.
Ouf Emily, feel better after getting that lot off your chest?
I’d like to make a few comments in response to yours. First off, I’m a blogger (not a grad employer) so my views are shaped around what I hear and read from a variety of sources.
In no particular order:
– undergrads have been “sold” the value of a degree as a means of leapfrogging poorly-paid or dead-end jobs. They accept huge levels of debt (far more than I would have been prepared to accept – in fact, my uni education was free – was yours?) in the expectation that it will pay off. Quid pro pro. Only there’s rather more quid than pro, and – unfortunately – far fewer of the typical grad entry-level roles than anyone cared to warn them about. Of course, a terrible economy doesn’t help, but I think there’s some mis-selling going on. Which leads to a lot of frustration, anger and bewilderment. You shouldn’t deny that to those grads left holding the debt, imo.
– university careers services do appear to offer varying levels of service. From what I hear and read, some are great and proactive. Some less so. But grads expect a certain level of advice. Instead, some get a hotchpotch of this and that, unfamiliarity with the NMW / unpaid internship debate, and so on. Basically, the level of provision is not equal among all universities.
– quite possibly, you’re right to say some grads are lazy, lacking get-up-and-go and not clued up to the real world. Yes, well, I was too. I didn’t use my careers services at all, expected to walk into a job as soon as I graduated, and knew I could go on the dole and get housing benefit if I didn’t. Lucky me to graduate at a time when there was still welfare to talk about.
Some of my grad friends were far more clued up than I was – that’s just how things are. Some people are focussed, others drift a bit. I don’t think it’s a useful criticism to make to say that we should all be 100% switched on about career possibilities. Some of us might be hard at work studying, some of us might be hard at work doing other things (you know, getting a wide general education) and some of us are making the most of our undergrad years when we can explore our areas if interest in great detail, knowing we’ll probably never have that possibility again.
– I honestly don’t get the impression that the grads interviewed for this article have a massive chip on their shoulder, as you said. If I was in their place, I’d probably feel I’d been sold a crock, and I’d probably feel that there would / should be someone who could give me some useful, actionable advice. Most of the grads I know of are ten times more proactive than I ever was – and they still can’t find work that they were assured would be theirs when they left with a shiny (expensive) degree.
Unpaid internships taken through desperation? Tick.
Hundreds of applications made for jobs? Tick.
Understanding they have to kip on people’s floors / go back to live with parents? Tick.
Frankly, if I was a grad now, I’d probably be hurling rocks through windows at Westminster, or emigrating…
No, Clare, I don’t feel anything from getting it “off my chest” because I have no vested interest in graduates. I’m in the incredibly fortunate position where I don’t have their problems and I know exactly how lucky I am. I’m here because it’s an interesting topic and I’m against unpaid internships. And no, my (unfinished, by my own choice) university education wasn’t free. I had debts, but they are paid off because I have been working full-time since I was 19.
The thing you guys should remember is that I’m the poster girl for the people make the hiring decisions. We are in the very lucky position that we can be extremely picky about who we hire. And people with the attitudes demonstrated in this article are precisely the type of people who are unlikely to make good employees. Indulging them and allowing them to wallow in their own self-pity is incredibly unhelpful. I am a big fan of tough love, and I think people with this kind of mindset need some straight talking. Everyone needs to be able to vent, but constantly validating these kinds of negative thoughts is counter-productive.
I don’t disagree with most of your points, Clare, but what I would have liked to see in this article was examples of career service failures coupled with examples of the affected students taking positive actions themselves instead of just blaming others.
Yes, there was and is mis-selling going on. University degrees are increasingly worthless (do I care if I see a degree on a CV or not? Not in the slightest). Is the economy awful? Yes. Are there fewer and fewer jobs? Yes. Is that fair? No. But life’s not fair, and the sooner the graduates in this article realise that and start being more proactive & less whiny, the better off they will be.
I keep offering my casual staff (i.e. graduates in part-time customer service positions) career mentoring, CV & cover letter review, interview practice with me, etc. Do any of them take me up on it? No, they don’t. But they expect me to listen to them complain every single time they get yet another rejection.
I offered the same help to my 22-year-old cousin. Did she want it? No. But did her mother make her do it? Yes. And does she now have an entry-level graduate job in the area she studied? Yes, she does.
(Also, Tanya – calm down with all the “FIGHT” etc on Twitter. We’re not fighting, we’re having a sensible, adult conversation.)
Hi Emily
I’m not sure that grads are being “indulged and allowed to wallow in their own self-pity…” Rather, Tanya has pulled out some examples of what has gone wrong, for want of a better word. Unprepared careers services, for one.
Yes, attitude is really important. More so often than either qualifications or skills. But I don’t think you can extrapolate a whole attitude set from one or two comments.
I don’t think it’s whiny, for example, to be angry at the cards they’ve been dealt. We’re not talking about a small minority of underemployed or unemployed grads, either. There’s a significant % of people who have every right to feel they’ve been sold down the river. (Grads, school leavers – what’s the unemployment rate now – sth like 1 million?) That’s a lot of young people who can’t find anything, whose potential is being wasted.
I don’t have the answers, obviously, but neither do I think that a session of “tough love” is going to change things. I think it’s helpful to lend a hand where and when you can (i.e. advising on CVs, interview practice) but you know, people don’t always ask for (or want) advice when things are kind of going alright. Very few people, proactive or otherwise, are going to be writing up their CV when they’ve already got a job.
Just one other point, and it might or might not be relevant. You’re the poster girl, as you say, for hiring managers. You’re used to a certain mindset or way of approaching things. Do you think it’s possible that your way of doing things is different to many of the grads you see because of a generational difference? And though this generation (again, I don’t know whether this is true for you) has its own strong points, a different generation also has other strong points that we’re perhaps less tuned in to, as we only understand our own? So we might only hire people who feel like Gen X, when perhaps our companies or organisations sorely need a Gen Y. Just thinking out loud really, because I’m no expert on generational differences.
Tanya will i get the answer, how advice given in the `advice` section — how to understand recruiters, goes with your campaing ?
JC: “Demonstrate that you have made the best of the downturn and gained some experience that’s relevant to your future career goals, even if it’s an unpaid internship or volunteering.”
DH: “All graduate recruiters look at specific qualifications when the market is so competitive, any relevant work experience — even unpaid — really give you the chance to prove your commercial awareness and a potential to hit the ground running.”
regards,
If only other Universities would follow the shining example of the University of Manchester in not promoting illegal unpaid work to their students. Fantastic Scott, great to hear, exactly what one expects to hear from one of the country’s top Universities.
Scott, there is no loophole in the regulations. If an individual is taken on and expected to do real work within set hours, they must be paid as they are workers (whatever they are called). The Pay and Rights Work Helpline is very clear, firm and specific about this (try them, 0800 917 2368), and that is exactly the situation that most graduates faced when they take up an “internship”.
@ again, question about…
I can see you feel strongly about this but please don’t address me like that. I run GF almost entirely unpaid, so I have to prioritise my paid work, so I can’t respond to every query immediately. If you felt I needed a nudge, you could have done so more politely.
I agree that the tone of the comments from James Callander and Dan Hawes are slightly at odds with the latest campaigning on Graduate Fog / Pay Your Interns. However, I must point out:
1) They are not Graduate Fog employees, they are recruitment experts – and they are entitled to express their opinion.
2) They are not encouraging readers to do unpaid work experience – they are simply saying that if you have done unpaid work, don’t leave it off your CV. As I read it, could be working within a club or society, as well as commercial work experience.
3) I have never told GF readers not to do unpaid internships.Given the economic climate and competitive jobs market, I know many of you feel you have little choice. I have always been clear that the villains here are the companies that refused to pay a wage for their internships – not the interns who do them.
I plan to review the Advice section at Christmas sop will consider an update then.
@ Emily Wilkinson
You are more than welcome to express your views on Graduate Fog (however strong they are – as long as they are expressed in a way that is respectful to other users of the site, which I felt yours were – just about!)
However, Graduate Fog is my website, and I have the right to promote what’s happening on it however I like – so I was irritated by your suggesting that I “calm down with all the “FIGHT” etc on Twitter”. Your post was pretty strongly worded, and appeared to be asking graduates to come forward and disagree with you. Writing FIGHT! has become a bit of a shorthand for alerting Twitter followers to a bit of a scrap happening on the website, which they can get involved with, or follow.
Graduate Fog is a lively forum where people have proper, passionate arguments about subjects that matter most to them. That’s what makes it unique – and I am extremely proud of that fact. If this style of debate doesn’t suit you, I suggest you post on a different website next time.
@Clare
As ever, I agree with you 100%!
Well – 99%. I think you went too easy on the university careers advisers… ; )
Thank you Tanya,
I don`t feel there was anything rude in the way i asked if you will be able to answer. I should stop at this point because now i`m 100% convinced that you are doing it to increase your own publicity and not really to help graduates,
However i must point out:
1)Their opinions are in advice section of your website.
2)”Demonstrate” that you have made the best of the downturn and gained some experience that’s relevant to your future career goals, even if it’s an unpaid internship or volunteering – that for me sounds very encouraging
On another note you are very quick to ask me to be more polite even thou i feel very strongly about something, but have you ever reviewed the way you address people that don`t agree with your point of view, would you call it polite ?
That would be it from me.
Regards,
@question
The way I read it, opening your request with “Tanya will i get the answer…” is pretty rude.
…as is not thanking me for taking the trouble to reply to you at all.
You’re welcome! : )
@question
okay, my mistake – you did say “Thank you Tanya” – but did you mean it? the rest of your response suggests not.
I am checking out of this discussion now, as it really doesn’t mean that much to me. I was just trying to put across my point of view, which is pragmatic and firmly rooted in the real world (a perspective that is seriously lacking in the views expressed by the graduates interviewed for this article).
Clare, an answer to your final question – I am 28 years old, so no, I don’t think there’s an enormous generational difference between me and recent graduates.
Instead, the difference is that I left uni early, started full-time work at 19 in a lowly admin role, and used that as a jumping-off point to work my way to my current managerial role.
I am now enthusiastically seizing the opportunity to have the rest of my degree paid for by my employer, which will help me take the next step in my career.
I am perfectly aware that I have been lucky. But I also worked extremely hard to get where I am, I made sacrifices and missed out on things. However, the result of my choices is that I don’t need to stress about where my next mortgage payment is coming from and I can afford to spend 50% of my weekends catching up on the travels that my peers did during their uni breaks. I consider this to be a fair trade-off.
Good luck with the Pay Your Interns campaign, Tanya. I fully support it and think that it is an incredibly constructive way for you to offer support to recent graduates.
“Are there fewer and fewer jobs? Yes. Is that fair? No. But life’s not fair, and the sooner the graduates in this article realise that and start being more proactive & less whiny, the better off they will be.” In response to Emily Wilkinson, Talking about life not being fair misses the point. Most graduates have a big student loan to pay back. My student loan is over £15,000 and I also paid tuition fees. If you were to spend £15,000 on a new car that was advertised by the company as a great car but that car did not work you would be angry about it and complain. It is the same principle because my university advertised Degrees as helping people to get good jobs.
Again, very quick to make judgments,but no value in response at all.
Careers advice is poorly advertised. It is designed for mature people. There was little emphasis on the types of careers and career paths.
Not all graduates are the same. All graduates are not white,able bodied and derived from an upper middle class background.
I think there will be more riots in the future.
I recently graduated in May and I am now a trainee Careers Advisor so I can see both sides of the story and I think that both sides make good points.
Being a graduate right now is really tough and the whole situation regarding unpaid internships is disgusting. It’s cynical, exploitative and prevents many talented people from getting jobs. I have a lot of sympathy for anyone in that situation right now.
It would be good for universities to run information sessions on employment rights. The problem would be getting students to turn up. The problem is, careers advice is not a sexy topic. Visiting your careers advisor is like having your five a day – you know you should do it, but you don’t really want to, and many don’t do it at all.
I was reluctant to visit my careers service for the majority of my time at university. I always felt that I had enough to worry about with studying, working etc. I completely understand why people want to put it off. It’s daunting to think about your future. However, eventually I had to take responsibility for my future and go and speak to my careers service.
I can’t speak for any other university careers service but my university careers service regularly emailed students, advertised sessions and occasionally visited lectures and seminars. Despite this, the majority of the students I knew never went to see them. There is only so much university careers services can do. And given that in most universities there is a ratio of about one careers advisor to several thousand students, they can’t approach students individually.
Many students do need to take more responsibility for planning their careers. Careers services take a non-directive approach because by the time you are at university you are an adult. It’s entirely your choice whether you take the time to see a Careers Advisor or not. They are not your mother. Even if universities made career guidance appointments compulsory, it’s likely that (a) many students wouldn’t turn up and (b) many wouldn’t engage in it because they didn’t feel ready to plan their career.
I don’t really understand the whole controversy about Prospects on this website. Prospects doesn’t pay university Careers Services to use it – it is funded by adverts. The reason it’s often the default website is because it’s written and regularly updated by Careers Advisors so they know they can be confident in the information provides. Careers Advisors in general will use or recommend whatever source of information they think is best. If we think a source of information is crap, we won’t use it. (Which is why, for example, many Careers Advisors in Scotland are refusing to use Career Scotland’s official new website). Target Jobs is also widely used in universities.
However, I do think that there is a lot more that university Careers Services could do to boost student employability. Guidance on how to develop skills such as team working, managing conflict and public speaking could make a huge difference. I would definitely like to see more information for students on employment rights (particularly on unpaid internships and equal pay for women).
I live in America. My university only had jobs at places like Walmart. What really disturbed me was finding out that the jobs that I was applying for, not even getting an interview, were being taken by people who never even went to university or if they did they didn’t major in that field. I applied for Abengoa Bio Energy ethanol plant lab manager. They hired a history major for the lab manager and when I applied for a mere technicians position, they hired the judge’s daughter. She was gone in 10 months. I have a chemistry degree by the way. I have been told that I am not qualified to work at the wastewater treatment plant, at the cheese plant, or at the hospital lab. I and told that the hospital lab and medical labs I am not qualified to work in because I don’t have ASCP certification and medical laboratory technology. I paid off my 50,000 dollar student loan debt, made good grades, and I do not have a criminal background. Unemployment is what I got 4 it.
As a graduate with 4 science degrees (most recently a Distinction in MSc biomedical sciences,) I can safely say that 8 months into my unemployment, my degrees have done -nothing- for me. What really really irritates me is employers these days who seem to expect graduates to almost be born straight out of the womb with experience. How can all these recruiters and employers forget that they had to learn their job as well?
I’ve failed to get work in -anything- at all. My CV has been checked over so many times and is as good as it can get. My interview technique is excellent as well (so I have been told.) And yet it feels like it comes down to whether a recruiter likes my name, CV font, or order number in her pile. Four science degrees does not appear to even qualify me for jobs involving sticking labels on bottles in a laboratory. As ashamed as I am to admit it, I’ve found something I dislike more than bankers… and that’s recruiters like Emily. I truly feel that recruiters and their seemingly arbitrary selection processes cause so many suitable people to be left out of employment because the application stack is ‘too big.’
Adam is a bit of a douche. I go to UWE at the moment and the careers service is right opposite the library, with huge posters advertising all their services. He couldn’t have failed to have missed it.