SOME GRADUATES’ APPROACHES ARE “APPALLING,” BOSS TELLS GRADUATE FOG
You spent hours on your application – and were gutted when you never heard back. What went wrong? Lorraine Emmett, Managing Director of PR company Emmett & Smith Ltd explains what makes her hit the ‘delete’ button. Does any of this sound familiar – or is Lorraine asking too much from her young applicants?
“Returning to work after two weeks in foreign climes, tanned and relaxed, it is with some humour that I regard our ‘info@…’ inbox full of job applications from graduates and potential interns who think they want a career in PR. This is an improvement because for most of the year it’s with open-mouthed disbelief and some sadness that I review and delete so many approaches.
“We are one of the many companies that does not respond to every applicant. This is because we get dozens of emails every day and unfortunately the vast majority are very badly composed. Others are simply appalling. Obviously if we have a role and someone looks like they have potential we will make contact. Where an applicant is impressive in their correspondence, but we have no role at that time, we will send an encouraging email.
“Interestingly, on the few occasions we have provided constructive criticism to some particularly awful emails, the response from the applicant has been tantamount to an online tantrum. One girl actually phoned up to complain to my ‘boss’ about the way she had been treated. Excellent research and observations skills demonstrated by her — she hadn’t noted that I was the Managing Director, even though my surname is actually part of our company name!
“PR is about educating, influencing and persuading – both verbally and in writing. Therefore being able to construct a grammatically correct sentence with words that are spelt correctly and properly punctuated is fundamental. The easiest way to deal with this is to use Spellcheck and always get someone to check your work. You don’t want spelling errors and poor punctuation to mark you as a least suitable candidate at the first hurdle.
“In order to educate, influence and persuade we have to find the right press contacts and engage them. An email that is addressed to ‘Dear to whom it may concern’ or ‘Dear Sir/Madam’ doesn’t really demonstrate much initiative, does it? It can also appear a little rude. If you want someone to invest their time and money in training you, it’s worth finding out their name and addressing them correctly. Spelling the name of the company correctly should be a given, but so many applicants manage to get it wrong.
“To engage the media, PR companies need to present ideas in a way that stands out, provokes further thought and secures a positive response. When you apply for a job, you are asking for similar consideration – and using bizarre fonts of varying size and colours is not the way to create that impression. (In fact, this just looks like rather childish, attention-seeking behaviour!).
“However, the applicant that provided me with a critique of various case studies displayed on our website – with the caveat that it was just in their ‘inexperienced opinion’ (polite and clever) – did indeed get invited in for an interview. Their application demonstrated intelligence, self-awareness and initiative – as well as a genuine interest in my business. We still work together.
“Now, bearing in mind that Emmett & Smith is a b2b [business to business] PR company and our clients include global technology companies, academic institutions and charitable trusts, who can spot the problem with the statement: ‘I like organising parties and I have always wanted to work in Fashion PR?’ I’m afraid it’s all about knowing your audience and engaging them in a way that is appropriate and relevant.
“Finally, personal email addresses can say an awful lot about a person – what’s important to them, the way they see themselves and the way they conduct themselves. So if your email is something like ‘HotPartyPal268@…’ and you are seeking a job in corporate PR consultancy – or any professional workplace, for that matter – it may just be worth setting up a separate, less colourful address!
“It’s going to be a tough summer for many graduates and, whether or not your chosen career is PR, I sincerely wish you all the very best of luck in finding work.”
*ARE EMPLOYERS ASKING TOO MUCH?
Or are Lorraine’s criticisms fair? How much time do you put into your job applications? Do you tailor your CV and covering letter for every job, or do you ever use a ‘scattergun’ approach to save time?
Lorraines complaints are common ones among employers. We get some really awful intern applications at the Taylor Bennett Foundation. But luckily, some really good ones too.
To help, I have two articles which should help job-hunting grads, particularly those who want to go into PR:
http://stimsonsarah.com/2011/05/09/ten-tips-for-pr-applicants/
http://stimsonsarah.com/2011/08/12/ten-tips-for-job-hunters/
Those are absolutely all fair and valid points – and, just as importantly, ensure that applicants would add to the business rather than hinder it. Jobs are not a charity which businesses are obliged to provide to people who are inept or unsuitable! Entitled and/or lazy graduates really hurt our reputation.
Great article. I have worked in recruitment for a long time (both in an agency environment and internally) so I too spend an awful lot of my time reading through dire, misjudged applications. Admittedly, I am an unsalvageable pedant for good grammar, but I see this as a prerequisite in demonstrating care, self-awareness and attention to detail – all of which should be present in a good job application.
What I used to find most depressing as an agency recruiter was to spend 10 minutes cleaning up a candidate’s CV only to receive an email back from the client asking if “their available for interview”. Grimace.
Of course, a true pedant like Lorraine should have said “both orally and in writing”, as opposed to “verbally”…
This is absolutely my experience.
Send me a stock email? Bin.
Show no proactive research about my company? Bin.
Say absolutely nothing at all with very many words? Bin.
The best way to get an interview and subsequently a job is to demand respect and attention by being interested and engaged and articulate. Fulfil this and the words in your communication are largely irrelevant- so long as the message gets across. Hell, if I received an email that simply said “I really am interested in what your company does and would love to see if I fit into it somewhere”, that would probably swing a telephone interview.
I don’t think this article is harsh however as a recent graduate I did not know about researching a company and the STAR method of giving examples when I left university. I was lucky enough to gain an intern ship where I learned these details! However graduates should be taught these essential work skills while in education, it baffles me how many graduates are left by their universities to grope around the job market unaware!
I agree with the others that this article isn’t very harsh. However, we don’t really know what Lorraine’s idea of “potential” is other than the one girl she mentioned, and it could very well be that she is demanding too much in some aspects. Also, I think she is somewhat setting herself up for some of her grief by having absolutely no career information on her website (which leaves people to send speculative applications at what appears like random times) and providing no contact details other than her info@ email address – that doesn’t make it terribly obvious that she, or any specific person, should be addressed in the email.
I agree with Kayla that it can be difficult to know who to address a speculative application to. If a general email address is the contact listed it’s not unreasonable to assume several staff members will look at it and so it would be inappropriate to address it just to one. Grammatical and spelling errors are totally unacceptable though, as is not knowing anything about the company. I’ve always sent well written applications but still didn’t get any results so who knows where I went wrong!
All things being equal, I am sure that Lorraine Emmett considers herself of superior intellect…. unfortunately, it is one thing for some Personnel Clerk to buy an Off The Shelf Company and set herself up as a Managing Director, but quite another for Lorraine Emmett to create a worthy business.
I think this is a really useful article for graduates. There is a lot of bad advice out there regarding CV and Cover Letter writing. For a while I was told it was perfectly acceptable to use Dear Sir/Madam. There can also be a lot of emphasis on standing out which could encourage the use of odd fonts and colours as well as the more wacky email addresses. Its definately better to get advice from employers.
Its not always easy but I think I will make more of an effort to find out who I’m addressing when I write a cover letter. I do try to show that I have researched the company I am applying for but I really struggle to get this across in a way that doesn’t make me look like I’m either sucking up or sounding like an apprentice candidate.
I liked this article as I’m a major grammar Nazi and that was its main thrust; however I don’t think it revealed anything that a bright graduate shouldn’t already know.
I also very much agree that finding the name of the person to address your email to is not always appropriate, and particularly like Kayla’s point about the lack of career information on Lorraine’s company website as a foundation for receiving what she might perceive as vague applications and therefore not worthy of her time.
When I used to apply for jobs (given up for the time being – yes i’m fiddling the dole), my spelling, punctuation and grammar were perfect. I set out my cv and covering letter logically, answering each point on the person spec. I never applied for anything I wasn’t qualified for.
Her statements are bunk. Lots of employers are lazy and indifferent. It’s an employers market. I’ve found this attitude even exists in the government run careers service (work solutions). A manager promised to ‘pimp up’ my cv as he said it wasn’t up to scratch, a few weeks later I asked my advisor to email him and the response we got was he has been ‘too busy’ and ‘won’t get round to doing it’. Nice. This was at a young persons careers fair btw, nice to see they view young people with contempt. Who is going to help the most vulnerable? (This isn’t true for all work solutions employees btw, I get the impression my advisor genuinely cares).
I couldn’t care less any more. I’m finishing my science degree, entering graduate medicine if I can get in, and emigrating.
When you apply for office jobs this is exactly what you get, idle, nasty jobsworths.
“Her statements are bunk. Lots of employers are lazy and indifferent. It’s an employers market.”
Lots of employers can pick and choose. That doesn’t make them lazy or indifferent – just a lot more demanding. What it does mean is that a lot of candidates will be disappointed. Not just those who turn in a sub-par application, but also those who take the time to write a great one which ordinarily would be more than enough to get them the job.
“A manager promised to ‘pimp up’ my cv as he said it wasn’t up to scratch”
Did he say what was wrong with it? Even verbal feedback might have given you some useful pointers.
“Her statements are bunk. Lots of employers are lazy and indifferent. It’s an employers market.”
Well, you’ve missed an apostrophe there so I wouldn’t be convinced your grammar was perfect. Caitlin also can’t spell ‘definitely’… so… not impressed by the general standard of people claiming to have perfect grammar here.
*Catherine, even, not Caitlyn
Oh diddums.
Clare: it was at a busy jobs fair so he took my contact down instead. I generally don’t expect something for nothing so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised. You’re right, employers are incredibly demanding. I think i’ll stop reading this site, it’s too depressing!
Never work for a tin-pot operation. You need a large company with scope, a large organisation. Not replying to job application emails is pig ignorant and confirmation that it is a useless company.
Andrew – There’s a world of companies in between “tin-pot operations” and “large companies with scope”.
Don’t forget working for those, because the majority of jobs are being created in the SME sector. In fact, 71% of jobs created during the recession were by start-ups and small businesses.
Richard, I totally agree with you and am following the same path – finish degree then out of this country.
Some people are very good at all the box ticking gough but cr@p in the actual job – and vice versa. I find employers (particularly those with the least to offer) so far up themselves with their idea of their own importance it’s untrue. I’m an engineer not a PR person – thankfully!
It’s the likes of these PR clowns that have screwed this country with their pointlessness and fluff.
“returning to work after two weeks in foreign climes, tanned and relaxed it’s with some humour that I regard our info@ blah blah blah”
Aren’t you flippin clever…NO! Smug and delusional yes, clever no.
LOL @ Irritating person, Catherine didn’t say her grammar was perfect or even good. Get your facts right before you troll because the only person looking stupid here is you 🙂
@Andrew: I agree there’s too much ‘spin’ or plain bullshit in all areas of life, especially recruitment and employment (plus politics but that’s a different story). Often it isn’t the person who is best at spouting all the crap that is the best person for the job-but they’ll get it as we live in an shallow, superficial world. These kinds of people often get the promotions too. It’s true many employers have grossly over-inflated egos and are pretty delusional about how good the opportunity they are offering actually is. The author does come across as smug, not good PR for the company which is pretty ironic.
@Andrew and Richard: I understand the drive to leave the country but just wondered how you know it’s better somewhere else?
I agree with Lorraine Emmett. However I do spend hours doing applications, ensuring all my i’s are dotted and t’s are crossed, showing how my skills match the required specification etc (often on online application forms that are riddled with technical errors…. I won’t name them but you would be shocked at which organisations can’t seem get this right) and to not even get so much as a you didn’t get the job is gutting. (I would settle for… ‘Are you joking, you useless muppet’)
A lot of this does seem to be overcoming HR departments proving their salaries by meticulously scrutinizing forms for any mistakes or unticked boxes. I have to say I wonder if they would they give themselves a job seeing how poorly some forms are written.
I left university with a first and left the UK for a management job in an international organisation in East Africa (the economy is booming!). A job I wouldn’t have got until I was 40 in the UK. I thought with this experience (2 years) an entry level job at least would be within my grasp, and my UK career could kick off. How wrong was I!!. I am not saying I am the ideal candidate, but it is more frustrating seeing friends with no qualifications and no experience walk into fantastic jobs on the virtue of them being friends or related to someone.
I am starting to think perhaps rather than ‘getting my Hoff on’ and trying to smash down the HR wall, a better approach may be, walking around the city centre introducing myself to anyone and everyone. The next PM? or helping old laddies shoplift from Oxfam? who knows? But I like those odds better.
So I would put this to Mrs. Emmett, (if she has followed this feed), IS everyone in your company the best person for the job? Have they all matched the minimum specification? Have they all been through the process of being scrutinized for a misplaced comma?
Wow Stephen, that’s crazy (you sound very inventive). Sadly I would agree that if you do have contacts, they’re likely to put in a good word on your behalf.
Caitlyn: it might not be, I was basically just going off the skilled occupation lists for other countries and hearsay about higher saleries. I do know someone though who recently moved to new zealand as an OT, it sounds like an adventure 🙂
Going overseas isn’t a bad option at all – if it’s the right overseas… Some places are booming and a degree from a UK university can open doors – especially if you have skills / experience. In some countries you’ll get far more challenging opportunities to prove yourself which means coming back to the UK can be a cold shower. (This happened to me when I returned from a publishing job in Hong Kong to London. I had to start over at the bottom as jobs my “experience level” were pretty thin on the ground.)
But other countries are not such a good bet career-wise. Much of Europe has problems even worse than the UK, and if your subject is too vocational (i.e. medicine / law) you’ll find it difficult to practise without a conversion course of some description.
If I had to do it all over again, I’d go for the BRIC countries (OK maybe not Russia), Vietnam maybe. Canada and Australia are also interesting for certain sectors and not too difficult to get into if you’re under a certain age.
I finally got the job I wanted but I have to say I agree that employers are increasingly employing lazy tactics to take on staff. What’s the biggest thing which tips the balance when it comes to who gets hired? EXPERIENCE. So if you’re young, you’re automatically out even if you’re perfect for the job because they don’t want to spend time training you (even if you don’t need much in the way of training). That’s lazy – I don’t buy that employers don’t have the resources anymore because many of them do, they just don’t want to use them. That or they’d rather employ young people for free.
@ Stephen, I absolutely agree with you! I won’t claim my grammar is impeccable, but I do spend a lot of time reading and re-reading my applications before I send them off, and I don’t just fire off ten applications a day without giving it any thought. I’ve encountered so many companies that either can’t get their online forms to work properly, or have typos and grammatical errors on their websites (not to mention that some of the HR people seem to give little thought to the grammar in their emails) – a lot of these were big, well-known companies, too! In this situation, it’s jarring to be told that today’s graduates are no good because they can’t even write properly…
Being an unemployed graduate, I send out so many applications each week and the majority of these applications get ignored. Whilst I am sure the organisations get many applications due to the current situation, it wouldn’t hurt to send an email or a letter out to the applicant just to notify them. I personally don’t think there is anything wrong with my grammar or the way I fill out application forms. In fact, English was one of my strongest subjects. If we have shown the decency to take the time to apply for the post I believe that the company should have the decency to reply regardless of whether you are successful. If our application is awful, how are we meant to learn from this if we are never told? Not only this, being ignored by companies makes you feel even more down then you are already.
@Louise: Think about this from the perspective of an SME, without dedicated resources for recruitment (it’s likely going to be the director himself handling HR, or one HR professional).
By replying to every candidate, you’re detracting important resources away from business critical functions. I understand it’s frustrating – I’ve been there – but if I was an SME or micro-enterprise, I know that sending out letter to unsuccessful candidates wouldn’t be high on my priority list when I can guarantee it’d be a big enough drain on resources to short-list the BEST candidates in-house anyway.
Just my two cents anyhow.
Even if it is a small company I don’t really see how sending a generic email acknowledging the applicant would use resources….
I would accept that logic if there was an efficient system in place to effectively, and easily, send out those emails. Unfortuantely, putting in place such a system (a logging/mail merge system, for example) would take both time and money to produce and then time to maintain.
Either that, or a recruiter would manually send out a generic email to every applicant, but that is a manual process that too takes time.
I just understand why employers, especially microenterprises and SMEs, from a commercial perspective, don’t send out these emails.
@Louise
You think the business world is “fair” and “just” and “reasonable”. It isn’t. It’s just business. I’m afraid that a company owes you nothing whatsoever in return for the time you spent applying to work for them- not even basic politeness.
Let’s try this another way. Imagine you were a shareholder of a company, and you found out that the engineering manager was spending two hours of every eight hour day replying to CVs personally because that’s an ethical and pleasant thing to do. You would surely be asking why 1/4 of his salary was being spent for exactly zero benefit to the company. You would surely be screaming from the rooftops that he use those two hours to do real actual profit-generating work for the company.
In my experience the numbers are like this.
For every 400 CVs I will end up interviewing 20 people and recruiting 1 person. I’d guess I’d average maybe 10 incoming CVs a day so let’s say this takes 40 days, aka two months. So every two months I need to write constructive feedback for 380 people whose CVs have almost instantly gone in the bin. It’s just not practical unfortunately.
In the past I have asked for “stock” rejection letters to be sent, as a nicety, but guess what- that uses someone else’s time and resources which don’t benefit the company, so that gets vetoed to appease stakeholders. I’d also like to add that on the odd occasion I get a personally-addressed sincerely interested application which sadly isn’t up to scratch, I have personally written a thank you letter to explain that the application was unsuccessful. But applications coming from the agencies firehose are never going to get that kind of attention.
Sorry, but it’s a big and bad world. That’s just how it is.
If anyone is still reading this, please take a look at my previous post where I explained how you will almost guarantee to get at least a telephone chat from me. Taking this advice instead of sending out fifty template letters will serve you much better.
One last note on this thread, before you all say how awful business is and how awful I am for supporting these dreadful practises 🙂
Recruiters want one thing- to get an applicant in a job that fits them with as little effort as possible. Assist them in this at every opportunity.
If you see a job description that fits you like a glove, don’t be afraid of saying so. Apply personally, not through a bloody agency (they’re extremely expensive to businesses you know, and provide almost zero value). Apply to the person who you’ll be working for if you can find out their name. Show interest, eagerness, and willing. I’d far rather employ a less experienced candidate who is enthusiastic and excited than a more capable but jaded old hack (and have done). What you have or haven’t done is less important than what you will do. A good interviewer will figure you out a lot faster than you expect and take the interview in directions to expose more about you and not necessarily more about what it says on your CV.
Lastly, about this grammar nazi thing. It’s not hard to write stuff that’s correctly spelled and has reasonable grammar. To spend five minutes reading what you’ve written to check for errors before you commit to sending it is BASIC DILIGENCE. It’s a very cheap step at the end of the expense of writing the application. To not go through with it makes you look sloppy. It’s not about getting everything right- we all make typos- but it’s about saying “this is so important to me that I spent a few minutes checking the quality of it before I sent it”. It IS a direct indication of the character of the applicant. I can tell you that through experience. So whether you like it or not, sending out misspelled and ugly stuff to employers simply says that you don’t care about the role, or your prospects, or both.
While I can accept that there are a lot of applicants who do not spell check or even take care in their CV and cover letter I do find a lot of this article and some of the comments to be ignorant.
An applicant should treat their potential employer with professional respect, that goes without saying (though far too many graduates still don’t get this). However why don’t some employers step down from their pedestal and look at it from the applicants point of view?
You spend hours writing just one of many CV’s and cover letters tailoring it to the specification as you hear all about employers not liking stock CV’s. You labour over it taking into account the plethora of contradicting advice and tips and not knowing what is right and what is wrong. You check and double check and then send it off and cross your fingers hoping to god this is the one. In 99 percent of these cases that is the last you will see of that job.
“”Returning to work after two weeks in foreign climes, tanned and relaxed, it is with some humour that I regard our ‘info@…’ inbox full of job applications from graduates and potential interns who think they want a career in PR.”
Excuse me but that is not humour it is ignorance. The vast majority of those emails is a person who is struggling hand over fist against all odds for ten seconds of your time. I would not presume to judge you personally but I know for a fact that you (and most people in your position across all industries) didn’t get your job in an economic climate nearly as bad as this so I feel it is fair to say that you have absolutely no idea what it feels like to be on the receiving end of this kind of comment. I understand that dealing with this level of attention daily is hard, especially so when a lot of them are time wasters but have you taken ten minutes in your two week holiday to think ‘why’ there are so many applicants in the first place?
The answer is they are desperate. In a climate like this there is no shortage of talent so your statement that most of the applications are badly composed is likely to be false. Most of these individuals are educated and desperate so do you think they would risk losing out on a job by sending tripe? As for the rest who are badly composed have you stopped to consider that they may have been doing this non-stop for a very long time and have become so desperate that they are now applying for anything and everything? Let’s face it in this job market where everyone has a degree and everyone is capable enthusiastic and self motivated it isn’t a struggle for you to find someone who can do the job, now you are looking for reasons to get rid of applicants and sadly most of your reasons are simply poor excuses to shorten your list of candidates. In fact the fact that you mass delete a lot of applicants proves that you aren’t really searching for the best applicant, you just want to get one that will do who is still standing after you have dismissed the rest on grounds of ‘funny email address’ or ‘didn’t like their use of font’. I wouldn’t mind but a lot of employers out there actually advise stuff like this as it makes you more noticeable (apparently).
Your story about the applicant who offered a modest critique of your website is heart warming and I genuinely mean that. They took a gutsy move and it paid off but how much would it have taken it to go from ‘polite and clever’ to ‘ignorant and insulting’? Quite frankly I respect the applicant for having the guts to do something like that but I am under no illusion that the resulting interview was as much a result of the stars aligning and your mood being positive on that day than their application style.
The problem for graduates these days is that they are desperate, they are qualified but employers demand more and more from them and if we are honest all but the most privileged can say they fit the bill. What makes it more amusing is employers know that what they are asking for is unreasonable but as the talent pool is now a reservoir they can get away with it. The most common example of this is the experience catch 22 which every graduate faces. You can suggest voluntary work all you like but any graduate from a ‘normal’ background cannot afford to do this and in most cases companies aren’t interested in voluntary workers as a volunteer is potentially a weak link as the company has no hold over them financially so they have no obligation or responsibility. Add to this the fact that very few places will take on interns for gap years either and you have basically excluded most of the graduate world. When every job demands unreasonable levels of experience for an entry level role do you think desperate job seekers will just ignore it and move on to the next job advert? No they will exaggerate and try their hardest to get in anyway because let’s not forget that’s what our parents did before us and let’s face it how else will we get into employment if we simply give up at the first hurdle?
I do not mean to be as personal as I have come across but quite frankly the attitude of most employers is disgusting. Most people in a position to hire and fire these days have no idea what it is like at the bottom of the ladder and they are in most cases ignorant and downright disrespectful. They demand respect yet offer none and take no time to understand why their inbox if overflowing with applicants. Looking for reasons to hire someone has now changed to looking for excuses not to hire them, and the applicant is at the mercy of the mood swings and peculiarities of whoever is reading the inbox at that time. With all these things stacked against them finding a job these days is all about luck rather than qualifications.
What amazes me is that universities can charge you over £20K for your degree and still not teach you this stuff.
It is disturbing that some graduates are so clueless about how to approach employers. It is even more disturbing that universities are releasing them into the jobs market without doing anything to help them.
@ben
I couldn’t agree with you more! Employers are being unreasonable, they expect us to have experience even in entry level roles. Where do we get this experience from when we have been studying for a degree. I know so many people would reply ‘volunteer, do an internship’, but this just isn’t possible for everyone. Firstly, whilst I was at uni I had different paid jobs so I had no time to volunteer outside of university. In addition to this, I simply can’t work for free. I am one of the more fortunate students who managed to not to go into their overdraft whilst at university, but I have still come out of university with a huge debt, as well as not having a job. I did intern for a company not so long ago, but yet again this was not paid and the employer was not treating me or the other interns fairly at all, so after a while I decided to leave as it was not possible to for me to work for nothing. I wasn’t being paid , I worked the same hours as people who were being paid and I was doing the same tasks everyday.
I am also disgusted at the attitude of employers, saying that ‘we don’t even deserve basic politeness’ is awful. We are all human beings and we all deserve basic politeness. It may be difficult to understand what it is like to be in this position until you are in it, but some consideration wouldn’t go a miss.
“why don’t some employers step down from their pedestal and look at it from the applicants point of view?”
Because they don’t have to?
Because they have better ways to spend shareholder money?
& a whole bunch of good grown up business answers.
“Most people in a position to hire and fire these days have no idea what it is like at the bottom of the ladder and they are in most cases ignorant and downright disrespectful. They demand respect yet offer none”
This is personally insulting to me, but I won’t take offence. Let me respond, however.
People who hire people want to do the least amount if work possible to do that. This means choosing those applicants most suited to the job. Those recruiters largely don’t give a hoot about experience or qualifications. They care about filling the role as effectively as possible. It has nothing to do with remembering being at the bottom of the ladder or other romantic notions. It’s about a harsh commercial reality where politeness and romance is not funded by most businesses. As I’ve said, I am possibly an exception in that I’ve personally (in my own time, at my own expense) responded to specific candidates in specific situations. I am unusual.
If you want to be involved in a company where they send you flowers on your unsuccessful application, then good luck. They’ve spent money on flowers that could have been spent on the Christmas party. That’s not good business sense, and if you were the sole owner of the business using your money, you would be asking how buying flowers does your business any good.
@Louise
No employer expects new recruits to have experience they have not had the chance to earn. Recruiters are a realistic lot. That’s why it’s so vital you understand that there’s nothing personal and show enthusiasm and willing to differentiate you from those other 399 CVs.
@ Louise
I am impressed you got a voluntary position, they are getting increasingly rare in most industries. I can’t say I have had much experience in the world of voluntary work but I can certainly see how many employers take advantage of students wanting experience. It is a shame you had to leave but I hope things have worked out for you since then. You shouldn’t ever work for free as in my opinion it devalues the trade as why would they hire you when they can simply take a voluntary applicant for 6 months at a time instead? This is of course assuming they will even want to hire a voluntary worker as to be honest how can they expect you to do a good job when you have no obligation to do so.
@ Neil
“Because they don’t have to?”
That is a marvellous attitude, next time I see someone getting beat up I won’t help out because ‘I don’t have to’ In fact let’s just stop common decency all together because we don’t have to. I am not asking them to waste millions of pounds needlessly but an automated email just to say they received your email would be nice and is totally free to set up. If an old lady gets on the bus you give them your seat, if you bump into someone accidentally you apologise, how is this any different? You don’t have to do any of those things but you do because its polite. The fact is that employers don’t need to bother about manners because they have the upper hand and the impersonal anonymous nature of the internet has made it easier than ever to be rude. It is ignorant and I cannot condone it at all. It costs nothing to be polite, especially online.
“Most people in a position to hire and fire these days have no idea what it is like at the bottom of the ladder and they are in most cases ignorant and downright disrespectful. They demand respect yet offer none”
I said most people not all people, if you get offended that is your problem, I didn’t count you in that group you did that all on your own. I understand you cannot respond to every applicant personally, the notion is ridiculous, however would it kill employers to set up an automated email to say ‘thanks for applying, we will review it soon, if you don’t hear from us in 2 weeks you where unsuccessful?’
And if recruiters do not care about experience or qualifications why do they bother including them on job requirements? Everyone knows that experience doesn’t really matter for entry level roles (for anything higher up then naturally it is acceptable to demand some experience in the field) however time and time again I see it included on the job spec. The truth here is obviously that they don’t need experience and most employers don’t care if you have it as long as you can do the job, but as I stated there is no shortage of people who can do any entry level job so the task now is to cut the list down as much as possible. The first step to this culling process is by slapping experience requirements on entry level roles to get rid of the first line of applicants. As you said they don’t expect us to have experience we haven’t had the chance to earn, however if that is the case why is the experience catch 22 such a common problem and something many people complain about?
To cap it off I do not mean to be insulting and if what I said does not apply to you then by all means that is fantastic and I really mean that. But common courtesy costs nothing really and shouldn’t be ignored just because you have the upper hand.
Also with regards to your comments to Louise, how can you not take it personally when you apply to job after job and don’t even get an automated reply? It is just rude really. The best reply I got from a job so far was that ‘You weren’t good enough’ I mean at least that was honest, no false promises to keep you on file or anything. I mean I even sent one company who refused me an email back saying thank you for taking the time out to reply to me when so many others don’t, they sent me an email back after that saying no problem, happy birthday and good luck in your job search. I mean they even knew it was my birthday from looking at my Linkedin profile, that obviously is way and above the bar but it shows that some people out there really do try and keep it civil.
@Ben
If you equate someone being physically beaten with someone not receiving a fake-sentimental letter saying “sorry you didn’t get the job” then I think you’re being rather over-dramatic.
I’m trying hard to be sympathetic, but I’m beginning to falter. You also want an automated email telling you something you already know? Does that sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me?
Experience: Experience is listed as a fair requirement for a role, as a guideline. I’ve sometimes used these to get a candidate I knew I didn’t like at interview out of the door. But do you know what? I’ve never applied for a role for which I’ve had the experience (or qualifications for that matter). Amazing eh? Such initiative! I can see it can be frustrating if you have no experience but what I’m saying is “be creative”. That doesn’t mean lie. It means present yourself in an engaging and honest way. A CV from someone who looks really keen to learn is valuable – arguably more so than one of (as I’ve said earlier in this thread) an experienced but jaded employee.
For example, I once received a 19 page CV. I nearly tore it straight up (nobody on this planet / with a clue would send such a thing) but I read it for a laugh. This guy had mounds of experience. He told me exactly how he makes software, and how he is managed best, and how he likes to write software once and then throw it away and write it again (this NEVER happens in software engineering), but he must have accidentally missed off how it was the case that he was looking for a job (it was obvious!). I threw his CV away and hired a very very smart and very very inexperienced graduate, who is now off doing something terribly clever somewhere in London.
You see? I was terribly terribly cruel to the very experienced man as well. I did not send a thank you for his CV, since I figured he was probably a grown up.
All I hear in this thread is “It’s not fair”. Well, get used to it. I’m not trying to upset you delicate souls, I’m trying to tell you the truth as honestly as possible, without sentiment, and without romance such that you may listen and understand why this stuff is the way it is.
If you expect a nice letter from the nice recruitment person, you are naive. You are expecting something you will ALMOST NEVER receive.
Now you can go on about what a horrible world it is and how everything is terribly unfair, or you can read my practical suggestions about how to get the attention of someone reading CVs for prospective employees.
You will send probably hundreds of CVs and applications out in your life. You will probably receive no acknowledgment, or comment, or thanks, but occasionally you’ll get a job you will like or love. Life is hard.
You are right. It is seriously unfair on the majority but complaining about it won’t help matters. I am just sick of sending applications off and not hearing a single reply back. What are we supposed to do, work hard sending off applications and then cross our fingers and pray that we land one while we stare at a career stacking shelves for the rest of our lives? That is literally what most grads do and there isn’t much of a way around it.
If nothing else this has made me feel better, and I do thank you for the debate. I read over some of your advice and I will use it as perhaps a fresh honest approach is better. Your advice is certainly more plausible than the canned preachy crap posted all over the internet, I mean seriously how many motivated, enthusiastic and outgoing people can there really be? And in all truth my personal profile is seriously suspect because at the end of the day I’m pretty sure Hitler thought he was a stand up guy.
I think what is most annoying to grads is that this is literally the be all end all of life and there is apparently no right way to go about it, but there are so many wrong ways that it’s terrifying. I still stand that an automated reply is not too much to ask just to know they received the application and that after a certain time take the hint that you didn’t get it. It is easy to say that you obviously didn’t get it if you didn’t hear from them but I have received replies from employers 8+ months after the application deadline. Call me sensitive but when you get rejected for the 60th time some closure would be nice so at least it is over and done with. It’s easy to say don’t take it personal but when you’re on the receiving end that’s a whole lot harder than it seems.
I’m not saying you haven’t been in that position by the way, just that right now it is very hard to take it on the chin.
@Neil
I don’t think we are being over dramatic at all. Like Ben said it is easy to say that we are ‘naive’ and ‘over dramatic’ but if you were in our shoes I’m sure you would feel the same. An email may mean nothing to your company but to the applicant it means everything. When I don’t receive a letter acknowledging my application I feel upset as well as angry. It really does knock your confidence. I am sure if you spent £20,000 on going to university you would feel the same.
As for the experience, I would have to disagree. I have rarely come across a post where experience doesnt matter, if this was the case I probably would’ve secured a job by now. Also, receiving an email apparently telling me something i already know is a ridiculous comment. If I had the attitude of ‘I know they will send me an email saying I have been unsuccessful’ then I wouldn’t bother applying for any job. I have had some companies acknowledge my application, whether this is through an email or through the post. If some companies are capable of doing this, I don’t understand why others aren’t. Can I also add these companies were not small firms.
No. It’s accurate and objective to say you’re naive.
You will never ever in your professional life be afforded the courtesy you desire.
You are still banging on about how a company which has no interest in you at all should spend its money on an invented luxury just to make your battered pride feel better. This does not happen for all the good tangible reasons I’ve given. If that business was yours (and maybe one day you will be mature enough to run a business) you too would be careful how you spent the money, and will agree that this is not a reasonable expense.
As for this discussion, I’ve been really reasonable and hopefully constructive in telling you a few secrets which would guarantee my attention as an employer. By eschewing my good advice, you are turning your nose up at my years of recruiting experience, my great hires (both experienced and naive), and all the effort I’ve put into being a good and responsible employer. And I still disagree with you. Doesn’t that tell you something?
It tells you that a) I’ve wasted my time and b) I will look less favourably on the arrogance of youth, because demanding a company which owes you nothing spend their money on you is nothing but arrogant. It also tells me that with graduates leaving degrees who genuinely believe they’re owed something because they’re in debt, I should look to older and more reasonable hires. Because, honestly, who wants to employ someone whose feelings are hurt because they don’t get a response back to a CV?
Good luck with the job hunt.
Out.
@Neil
Well I am sure you are wasting ‘value business time’ writing on here, a website which is actually aimed at graduates. It is not graduates who are being arrogant at all, it seems like it is the employer from what you are saying. An automated email is not a luxury, it is common courtesy. As for ‘being mature enough’ I wold certainly be mature enough as I understand the meaning of common courtesy. I am not turning my nose up , but you have an awful attitude towards graduates or ‘youths’ as you like to call us. Maybe you didn’t spend thousands of pounds of going to university, but I’m sure many graduates would agree with me that we are owed a decent job and common courtesy.
@Louise
I’m giving good advice from an experienced business professional. Since you’re suggesting this is a waste of time I’ll go elsewhere.
I can tell you that your attitude is appalling, naive, unprofessional and frankly idiotic.
You repeatedly go on about your £20,000 investment in your education. Surely anyone with an ounce of acumen will be trying to find a return on their £20,000 in any way possible – which includes taking as much free advice as they can? Public displays of how unemployable you are are a *bad* way to get that £20K back. From your attitude and your behaviour in the face of constructive advice, I can tell you that you are totally unemployable.
Good luck with your quest for that all-important automated email.
Good luck with your job hunt.
I hope you get everything that you feel is owed to you by this world, and that in some way then you will feel that justice has been done.
I agree with Neil. I think you are being a bit naive and over-dramatic.
Upset as well as angry that you didn’t get a response from an employer? How can you defend that as a position that’s not over-dramatic?
You’re expecting a response despite the fact that an employer has just give it you in black and white why it’s simply not done: How can you say you’re not naive to expect the majority of other employers to think the same?
I am not unemployable at all, in fact during my final year of university I had 3 jobs that’s how ‘unemployable’ I am. I am surprised you manage to recruit anyone with your attitude towards people. With you saying all these horrible things just makes me even more determined to prove people like yourself wrong, so thanks! I have had good advice from career advisors and from ‘how to get a graduate job in a recession ‘ and none of them said anything on the lines of what you have been saying.
@CD
Unless you have been on the receiving end, you probably won’t understand why it is so upsetting, I really don’t think it is much to ask for an automated email. It takes hardly anytime and costs nothing. Anyway I will leave it at that, we seem to have different opinions.
@Louise
“I have had good advice from career advisors and from ‘how to get a graduate job in a recession ‘ and none of them said anything on the lines of what you have been saying.”
How’s that careers advice working out for you? To me, the advice Neil gave sounds like common business sense. That trait that employers are looking for, “Commercial awareness”, is an awareness of the realities of business including the practicality of responses.
As has been said above, you can’t just automate denials. Even if you copy and paste in a denial template, it still takes time. Time = Money.
“Unless you have been on the receiving end, you probably won’t understand why it is so upsetting”
Don’t claim for one minute I don’t understand. I graduated in 2010 and it took me two years of determination to get a graduate job. Were there both ups and downs? Yes. Were those “ups and downs” upset and anger? No. At most it was a sigh and move on to the next well-made application, or phone call to network or market myself.
Well everyone deals with it in different ways, I personally find it upsets me and makes me angry too. The career advice I have received has been good as well as supportive. The support I’ve been given by my universities careers team as well as reading the advice that Tanya gives in her book ‘how to get a graduate job in a recession’ is what helps to motivate me and it provides me with emotional support too.
Okay, next question: Has that advice got you a job?
If it hasn’t, I don’t think you’re in any position to go about shooting down advice coming directly from the horses mouth.
If an employer gave me a tip which might help get me a job, why berate him to the point that he leaves the discussion? That’s called burning bridges and it’s a terrible terrible personal trait.
I’m sure that career’s advisors and Tanya’s book provides great advice; but they’re not the be-all and end-all. They’re not the only source you need.
Consider your job search like a dissertation, not a literature review. Think about it.
@Neil
I suspect you understand that there is a lot of pain/anger and frustration around about unemployment. I understand the cold economic sense, but as Dicken’s put: “Political economy is a mere skeleton unless it has a little human covering and filling out”
I hope you can continue to post good advice, but in the current climate with it being far to dog eat dog, and that I think for a society/business to work it needs some niceties. It is irritating that the fact money makes the world go round, does not recognise the human/touchy feel bit that also needs to happen. Thanks for the posts.
@cd
Getting advice from a careers advisor doesn’t get you a job that simply, I didnt claim it does. I didn’t make him leave the discussion , if you read the posts, for someone who apparently recruits people, I don’t think he is going the right way about it by insulting people. That is why I wouldn’t take his advice. How is saying someone is ‘unemployable, idiotic, appalling, naive and over dramatic’ a good personal trait?. I agree with Thomas, business does need some niceties , by this I don’t mean ‘luxuries’ just common courtesy,
I find it quite funny that such scrutiny is put on spelling and grammatical errors. Has anyone here did much job searching on the jobcentre.gov website ? The job ads there are embarrassing – Poor grammar and spelling all over the place. I can’t work out if there’s a lesson in there somewhere or not.
In my opinion ANY application deserves a response, even a blanket automated one ! Nothing worse than hearing nothing back.