GRIM PROSPECTS FOR GRADUATES ARE “FANTASTIC NEWS” FOR EMPLOYERS
A senior jobs expert has clashed with appalled graduates by suggesting that news that a third of call centre workers in the UK now have a degree is “fantastic.”
That this figure has risen from 25% in 2009 does not surprise Graduate Fog.
I know that the number of good, graduate-level jobs available is dwarfed by demand – because you tell me every day.
For months I’ve been hearing tales of graduates who have taken jobs in pubs, supermarkets, building sites and fast-food chains. One Fogger told me he reached a new low by doing a trial day for a job at discount store Poundland – for which he wasn’t even paid.
However, what does surprise me is the unashamedly breezy response to this dire news among industry experts.
Apparently, it is good to see that young people who have spent £23k on their education (on the understanding that a degree would lead to a good job) are showing “flexibility and adaptivity” in “difficult economic times.”
They’re kidding, right??
Nope. In yesterday’s Guardian, Carl Gilleard, chief executive of the Association of Graduate Recruiters, was quoted as saying:
“In difficult economic times, graduates are showing flexibility and adaptivity. It is great news for call centres, who are getting added value, but the challenge for them will be holding on to those people when the job market improves.”
And it’s not just me who thinks he completely missed the point of this news. The Guardian’s piece triggered a string of angry comments from graduates who did not share Gilleard’s casual attitude towards their desperation to find work.
Meanwhile another industry expert Geoff Sims, MD of Hays Contact Centres, seemed similarly chuffed by the grim news, telling the Telegraph:
“Call centres are becoming more demanding of their staff so it isn’t surprising that the profession is attracting more people with degrees, particularly when we are still faced with a challenging economy and high unemployment levels.”
Are these people trying to be offensive?
This may be “fantastic news” for employers that university leavers are so desperate for work they are flooding them with applications – but surely they must realise this is somewhat less fantastic news for the thousands of graduates gutted that their education has not bought them a better job than this?
I really don’t mean to be offensive to call centre workers in general, but this needs to be said:
Graduates have not spent £23k on getting a good degree to make a career out of answering customer service queries.
If this kind of job is a likely outcome of investing in a university education, I think this should be made clear to young people before they sign up to such enormous debt.
If schools, universities and politicians are going to continue allowing – and encouraging – students to think that a degree will lead to a good job, they MUST make sure that the facts back this up.
Unless I’ve missed something, until now ‘call centre operative’ has not been a job that requires a degree. People go to university on the understanding that their investment will buy (yes buy) them a decent chance at opportunities that are a bit better than they the kind of job they would otherwise have ended up doing.
If this is NOT the case, then we must stop tricking our young people into going to university.
Do I think graduates doing these roles now are justified in feeling a little aggrieved? Absolutely. If it makes me a snob to ask why they got themselves into thousand of pounds worth of debt to make a career of answering customer queries, then okay – I’m a snob!
Whilst calling myself names, I am trying to reserve judgment on Gilleard, who is well known for being good egg and has previously been a friend to Graduate Fog (eagle-eyed Dude? readers may have spotted his kind endorsement on the book jacket).
Gilleard often comments in the press and usually gets this stuff right. Were his quotes taken out of context? Did he go on to say “Obviously, this isn’t such great news for graduates…” – but did the Guardian’s editors simply choose not to use it? I hope so.
Because if someone with Gilleard’s experience and influence really believes that this is “fantastic news” for anybody other than the employers, I fear we’re in big trouble.
*What do you think?
Is it “fantastic news” that graduates in £23k of debt are taking permanent jobs in call centres? Am I a huge snob – or do you agree that a university education should increase your chances of landing a decent graduate role?
This is just horrifying and so incredibly depressing! I really would like to hear from Mr Gilleard a clarification regarding what exactly he meant with this quote; it’s simply adding insult to injury to say what he has said! We get a degree to get a “graduate job”, or so we are told. This is more certainly not what anyone imagines when they are eagerly filling out their UCAS form…!
*most certainly 🙂
I’m not so sure. I’d hate to second guess Carl Gilleard, but maybe he’s pleased that grads are adopting a “needs must” approach rather than refusing to take work that they might otherwise think is beneath them. Not that this should be “news” – I know of very few grads who haven’t, at one time or another, taken on more menial, or survival roles as a means of earning money, gaining a bit of experience, or making a few contacts. I know of many other, older workers, who are facing redundancy (think of the % of council workers who are currently facing the chop) who’d be happy to turn their hand at call centre work if it meant they could keep the roof over their heads. I think you could call it pragmatism. The fact is, if there aren’t enough jobs for the number of grads, some are going to find themselves doing things they didn’t sign up to do, unless they can make their own opportunities. I don’t think that’s the fault of Gilleard, universities, or grads – you could blame a tight economy, and changing global employment trends, perhaps.
Conversely, I’ve also heard / read of the number of grad schemes that can’t attract enough grad applicants. I’m not sure what’s going on here, but it could be that a) grads are so disheartened by employment figures that they’re just not bothering to apply to relevant schemes, or b) grads just aren’t getting to hear of what’s available.
I’m not sure if this is OK, Tanya, but I’d like to include this link from @BillBoorman all about the disconnect between grads, uni career services, and grad employers. Very interesting reading.
http://recruitingunblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/is-the-lost-generation-a-myth/
Clare
@Clare
Of course it’s fine for you to include that link – the only thing I’m not crazy about it when pushy PRs ‘comment’ irrelevant nonsense and then include a brazen link to their latest product or service – ick! But relevant, useful links are always welcome on Graduate Fog.
I thought the article was interesting – and you know you won’t hear any disagreement from me on this point:
; )
Re my blog post, I completely agree with you that the grads taking these jobs should be applauded for their work ethic and determination. As you say, pragmatism is the order of the day. I also agree with you that most of us will take a random not-super-impressive job at some point in our career – I spent my first summer after uni de-stapling (literally removing staples from stapled-together pages) for Office Angels. Hardly a promising start to a glittering career…
My concern is that this story suggests that these call-centre jobs aren’t just a stop-gap for these grads but are in fact the start of their ‘career’. Read again the comments from the MD of Hays Contact Centres:
As I said in my post, I really don’t mean to be offensive to anybody who has worked at or is working at a call centre. What I object to is the fact that our current system promises young people a decent well-paid job at the end of their degree – yet delivers something quite different.
Incidentally, I eventually quit my Office Angels job because I realised that I’d been educated to a level which meant I was qualified to do much more taxing and better paid work. And, luckily for me, in 2000 there were lots of jobs around and fewer grads to compete with. Once I stopped trying to work out what I wanted to do with my life (what a waste of energy that was!) and started properly applying to jobs I thought I might enjoy for a bit, I found something pretty swiftly – as an office manager for a recruitment company. It paid £20k. In those days, no experience / unpaid internship / MA / PhD was necessary – a good degree was enough.
Ten years on, things are clearly very different. Of course it’s good that grads are knuckling down and taking the jobs that are available – but my problem with this is that this reality is so very different from the dream they were sold in order to get them to sign up to 3 years at university and £23k of debt. That’s what I object to. Stats like these suggest what we currently have is nothing more than a con trick that robs our young people of thousands of pounds of their own money – and leaves many of them with very little to show for it.
Do you kow what – I wish I could get a job in a call centre but I can’t even get one there! One of the biggest employers in my area was a call centre but that went out of business a few months ago.
A few days ago I thought I would see how many jobs I have applied for since about january and I put all the jobs into an excel document. It turns out I have applied for 174 jobs and have had 1 interview and that was last week at the other end of the country and I was rejected! How depressing is that?
If Tanya would like the excel document of my job hunting she can have it. Just send an email and you can have a long list of my failures…
@Wayne
Sorry you’re having a horrible time – and welcome to Graduate Fog if you’re a newbie!
What degree do you have and would you have done it if you knew how tough it was going to be to find even a low-paid job at the end of it? Where do you think the failure is, within the current system?
I have a degree in PR. I don’t really know if I would have done it if I had to think it over again.
I only went to university because I couldn’t get a job beforehand. I couldn’t even get a night job staring at cctv for 10 hours. It’s the same reason I went to college.
They tell you that you should go to college to increase your chances of getting a job. When you do that and find it doesn’t work they then tell you to go to university to better your chances. When that doesn’t work they then tell you to volunteer or intern. There is no more advice after that…
The problem with the current system is too many graduates. A degree these days isn’t worth the paper it’s wriiten on.
Too many graduates is caused by there being not enough jobs which I think is caused by overpopulation, but maybe that’s a bit too controversial…
Tanya, I agree 100% with your sentiments and as you know we are big supporters of yours. I wonder whether there aren’t some very pertinent geographic statistics which have been left out of the Guardian article. Perhaps graduates in certain areas of the country feel they have little option other than to take more menial jobs than they really want. It could be helping them to make ends meet while they continue their search for their first ‘career’ move. It also proves their commitment and dedication; all good for the CV, and for their morale. They are of course also earning money, even if the pay is not great.
As has been said before, unless you have supportive parents you simply can’t get experience through an unpaid internship. Perhaps experience in a call centre is better than nothing, just so long as it doesn’t become truly permanent and you end up wasting your degree education.
Many of our jobs are hugely over-subscribed, particularly in the design sector, but we do see a significantly lower number of applicants for sales and marketing roles. I would be interested to know if any of your foggers can shed any light on that? Some seriously heavyweight jobs end up attracting only a handful of graduates, which, as Clare said above, makes little sense. If Wayne wants to get in touch we may be able to help him get some paid project work, which may all help towards that elusive first job.
Sue
Thought you might like the article Tanya!
I agree with your comments too. But perhaps back in 2007 (when this year’s grads first started Uni) nobody could predict the collapse of the global economy – nor that the employment landscape was going to change so much. What worries me is that given what we now know about recession and employment prospects, ever-increasing numbers of students are still applying for uni places – presumably in the expectation that there will be well-paid jobs at the end of it. Perhaps there will be a massive turn-around in the economy by the time they graduate, but it’s a big financial risk to take.
Clare
@Clare
“What worries me is that given what we now know about recession and employment prospects, ever-increasing numbers of students are still applying for uni places — presumably in the expectation that there will be well-paid jobs at the end of it. Perhaps there will be a massive turn-around in the economy by the time they graduate, but it’s a big financial risk to take.”
I completely agree- in fact I think that this is the key issue. I graduated in 2008 and when I applied to university courses in 2004 there was still very much an unwavering popular belief among those involved in secondary level education (particularly careers advisers I spoke with) that a university degree was almost a guarantee of getting a well-paid job. Other avenues were rarely mentioned and in all honesty, any sort of vaguely vocational education or training, with the exception of medicine, was frowned upon! Fast forward 6 years and we are in a completely different economic situation which, one would assume (and hope) would have influenced the message being communicated to 18 year olds by the education system and society in general… Alas, my sister is now 18 and filling in her UCAS form and despite my best efforts to educate her about the job market and to persuade her to assess her decision to go to university pragmatically and to consider more vocational degrees or training/ further education she, and all of her friends, are hell-bent on going to university. To do, well, just about anything; as long as they get a university degree, that seems to be all that matters! And that absolutely terrifies me because it means that we have brainwashed our young people into feeling that unless they choose to go to university, a choice about which many young people are startlingly badly informed, from a financial perspective, but also with regard to the value of a degree in the modern day job market, they are failures, they are not intelligent and they are not ever going to have a well remunerated, prestigious and rewarding career! Which is utter rubbish. We need to get the message through to secondary education institutes that not everyone should go to University… The decision of what you study at university has incredibly significant ramifications for the rest of your life and I just don’t think that A-level students are being well enough informed about their options and the opportunities available to them. We are letting them down. And for many of those who have recently graduated, like my brother did in 2009, with non-vocational degrees, they are disillusioned and disheartened by the job market they face; it’s just not what they were expected and setting such high expectations for students needs to stop. We should be directing young people into degrees leading to careers such as nursing, areas where there is a massive need for graduates and yet, people are studying media and history, wasting their time and money and then ending up demotivated and unemployed. The secondary and further education careers advice sector desperately needs to provide more up to date and realistic information and guidance to our young people!
@Christopher “secondary and further education careers advice sector desperately needs to provide more up to date and realistic information and guidance to our young people!”
Part of the problem has to do with the national consensus on WHO needs careers guidance, I think.
There seems to have been an assumption that careers guidance is what you offer school-leavers and those with sub-average qualifications / other social disadvantages … everyone else will be OK looking after themselves.
The way I see it, good quality careers guidance is most desperately needed by those with the most to lose by making wrong decisions (ie typically those with high academic / vocational potential, people employed in failing industries and individuals whose physical or mental health will be at risk if they work in the wrong jobs).
@CareersPartnershipUK
I do agree. But I also think that many graduates (who may have been very academically inclined, gone to university and successfully obtained a “good” degree) end up in what they consider to be the wrong job for themselves, which makes them feel worthless and inadequate thereby affecting their self esteem and well-being. I agree that careers advice absolutely needs to be targeted to different demographic groups, but I feel like school leavers (whether they pursue academic or vocational pathways) are being let down by the education sector as they are making badly informed decisions which have hugely negative and wide-ranging ramifications for their future careers (or lack thereof). They are, evidently, not the only demographic group in need of guidance and support, but they are one of the largest and in some ways most homogenous.
“If it makes me a snob to ask why they got themselves into thousand of pounds worth of debt to make a career of answering customer queries, then okay — I’m a snob!”
And so am I, Tanya, as I hold these views too. Unfortunately, today’s graduates (of which I am one – hurrah, class of 2010 (!)) have been led to utterly devalue themselves – and so we must, to keep our heads above the water. I personally count myself as lucky – I live near London, where many job/internship opportunities exist, and my mother can (just) about support myself if I do enter into an internship (not for want of trying).
Since graduating to the current time – so about three months – I have been trying to find a graduate level job or internship, and am not ashamed to say that so far this venture has been entirely unsuccessful. However, now, friends & family are starting to advise me ‘Why not just get any old job? Figure out what you want to do later.” This, to a point, makes sense, but I have two major problems with this.
Firstly, as Wayne pointed out, sometimes graduates can’t even get jobs like this. Too true, Wayne. One of my most recent rejections (among many) was from Next, as a Sales Assistant. Slag off English graduates as being too airy-fairy if you will, but I somehow think I would have been able to do this job.
Many employers offering these kinds of positions though, are reluctant to offer the opportunity to a graduate. Why? Because if a better opportunity crops up for that graduate, that graduate will be out the door – as opposed to a less qualified candidate. And it’s true. I know if I was working in Next, and somehow got offered a 20 grand job in London, I’d drop them like a sack of shit. So I see that side. Doesn’t mean it’s fair, though.
Secondly, the other reason I don’t want to apply for any more minimum wage jobs is – and bear with me here – I’m afraid I might like it too much. I don’t necessarily mean the nature of the work, but the steady, monthly pay check. Most graduates will never have had a steady pay check – not including three months’ worth of bar work like me or whatever – and I for one, am sure that once I got a job like that, and got my £1,200 a month, I would be extremely hesitant to give up that source of income unless I knew for sure that I would get a job that paid better. Personally, I’ve always felt that even if you don’t like a job, you become familiar with it; it’s a comfort zone. Like a bed with too many springs in the mattress that gives you a crick in the neck, you still don’t necessarily want to get out of it and face the coldness outside.
At the same time, though, I’d always, always be thinking “Isn’t there something more? Am I not worth more than this?” And that would grate on me, as I watched my friends with better-connected parents work in the City.
In fact, it grates a helluva lot even now. I signed on the other day. In the same line of desks where they interview you, there was another graduate next to me (or so I inferred, from his London university-logo’d hoodie and the fact that he was, well, at a Jobseekers centre). My interviewer asked me how I’d feel about doing more work. Next to me, another interviewer was asking Hoodie how he felt about road-sweeping. We exchanged a look full of knowing, empathy, and despair. And then we both humbly agreed to apply to our respective job propositions, lest we be denied that precious 50-or-so quid.
Blimey, that turned into quite a rant. Anyway, thank you Tanya, for championing this cause which so many are ignoring. It’s definitely appreciated!
Ali
completely agree with everything you said Allie! I’ve actually been turned down for call centre work because I don’t have the required experience lol…perhaps they should offer unpaid internships too?
Not sure how interesting this is but I do have a degree and work in a call centre, so I just thought I’d put in my story.
I graduated in 2009 and it took three months of signing on and applying to everything and anything my only positive reply was from a call centre. That was a year ago and I got the job. While doing this I have been doing a one day a week (free of course) job in a marketing dept doing Graphic Design. This felt like the only option to gain that bit of experience the graduate jobs were asking for. This is the only way I can pay the bills and feel like I’m moving forward towards that job. But since then it seems that more and more graduates are coming into the call centre and the graduate jobs seem to be going from one years experience essential to two or three years experience essential.
SInce being at the call centre I have been offered more training and a pay rise. My other job, not sure whether I can call it a job, I do learn a lot from and I am really grateful for it and there has been talk of giving me some money for my work but nothing has materialised.
I also don’t have any well connected city living parents. I went to uni in London and am now back at home in West Midlands. A lot of people I know from uni that have design internships have parents to support them to live with no income.
Working in the call centre is really hard sometimes as i deal with a lot of complaint management and sometimes I am spoken to in an appalling manner by some customers. Despite this I am very grateful to even have this job, but as more time goes on the further away that graduate job seems.
Wow just read that back imagining a tiny violin playing. Thank you so much Tanya for recognising us call centre workers. I do feel quite hopeful when reading your articles (despite my depressing entry) that someone is fighting for us.
@Christopher
I agree with you about the IMPORTANCE of providing really good careers advice to graduates (amongst other high priority groups), it’s just that I don’t think the state agrees – or is willing to fund what it costs.
For interest, the KEY groups seeking career advice with us are (1) teenagers uncertain what to do next (this category includes young people thinking about university); (2)graduates without a clue which professional career to aim for – or even whether one is achievable; and (3)mature graduates disappointed that their degrees haven’t opened up their career opportunities. If these groups are coming to us, it kinda suggests they’re not getting the help they’d expected from the state career services.
I agree with all the comments in this article. After I graduated, I couldn’t get a job and not for want of trying or lack of previous job experience (I’ve worked since I was 15). So I ended up temping for 6 months in a role that didn’t require a degree. I was rejected from other jobs either for not having enough experience (as a Latin American travel sales person, despite having 14+ months experience living & working in the region), or for being overqualified – what does that even mean!!
I decided to fork out (with my meagre savings from the temp job) to do a Certificate in TESOL and have since been working as an EFL teacher. Managed to keep my head above water doing supply/cover work, and in the end resorted to a disastrous stint in the Middle East simply because of the money. Back in the UK working for a super low wage considering the cost of my education and training, but feeling ever so thankful to even have a job ‘in the current climate’, whilst living in grotty student-esque digs…
When will things start to look up!!!
PS. On another note: ‘adaptivity’? Do they mean ‘adaptability’???
This is all a bit tedious isn’t it? ‘Graduates leave uni in midst of economic crisis, have to take less prestigious jobs’ is hardly a story. I do believe grads are let down by a university system that promises a lot more than it delivers, but people having to take jobs below their level of education/experience is happening to everyone, not just uni leavers. If you have a job, be grateful. Many don’t.
No-one has an automatic entitlement to their desired career; graduates need to knuckle down like the rest of the country and ride out the economic storm.
@ Simon
Well put! Just think of all those hundreds of thousands of highly skilled older people who have families & mortgages & much bigger problems that have been made redundant over the last few years – its devastating. And you’re on here complaining because graduates – most of which do not have such responsibilities and financial burdens – are in a regular, reasonably paid job directly out of uni. Sure, they may not be fulfilling their inner most ambitions – but surely you can appreciate its better than nothing and doesn’t mean it’s a permanent fixture. Plus, it’s far easier to get another job when you are already in a job, so stop your whinging!
@ Simon and Lizzie
My parents are included in those older people you speak of and me having to rely on them almost the same way I had to at uni is a massive strain on them. What I can afford to contribute to the household doesn’t anywhere near cover the amount I cost.
@ Sophie – no offence, but what on earth are doing to cost your parents so much??! Leaving all the lights on constantly? Having the heating on full blast summer and winter? Eating twelve meals a day?! Because the money I earned from my call centre job certainly more than covered my living expenses – and I wasn’t even living at home! Sure I had to cut back on the Gucci and Prada shoes each month, but you know, when things are tight, sacrifices must be made…
@Simon
@Lizzie
This isn’t just about the economic crisis. I graduated before the crisis really hit and the issues discussed here were already becoming apparent. Now they are reaching epidemic levels. When the economic situation improves, those “highly skilled older people” with “much bigger problems” will have experience and contacts to aid them in getting back into their chosen industry at the level they were in prior to the economic difficulties. Graduates, on the other hand, who, believe it or not, can also be “highly skilled”, intelligent, valuable and talented employees, will face the sort of prejudice, ageism and stereotyping displayed in both of your posts in addition to competition from “older” job seekers,graduates with more experience than them and thousands more graduates in general on the job market. Given that many recent graduates have had to work in positions like the ones mentioned in this post in order to survive financially during the crisis, when the situation improves and they do eventually apply for “graduate” positions, they will also be deemed by potential “graduate- level” employers to have little relevant experience at an appropriate level, thus adding yet another barrier to them ever achieving the sort of post (and salary) they were promised and effectively guaranteed by society and our education system. This is evidently unfair and there is little that graduates can do about it; we have worked hard and invested time, effort and money (20k plus of debt is a significant problem/responsibility in my eyes), then worked either in a badly paid, unskilled role to make ends meet and/or worked for free and been exploited as an intern in order to gain “valuable experience” only to find ourselves in the same situation as we would have, had we not gone to university; a precarious, unstable and unfair job market in which we are absolutely at the bottom of the pecking order. The fact that you feel this amounts to “whinging” and that we should not complain about not being able to fill our “inner most ambitions” (a fairly remunerated, stable and suitable position is an “inner most ambition”?) highlights just the sort of dismissive, ageist and offensive attitude that is rampant among British society and has only been accentuated by the economic crisis and the fact that some “older” people have, due to the crisis, actually had to prove their worth as employees, for many, for the first time in their careers. The vast majority of graduates 10-20 years ago had a much more positive (and dare I say simple) experience of the job market than those graduating today are having. There is nothing wrong with hard work and perseverance. The problem graduates today face is that no amount of hard work and perseverance is getting us to where we want to be.
@ Christopher – please stop whinging
I think that there seems to be an implicit assumption there that if you’re bright and work hard and make the right choices, you should get a job that matches that investment. And I don’t think it holds, unfortunately, because it doesn’t match with the economic reality. There was more of a match 10-20 years ago. But not now.
I don’t think I ever thought that going to university and working hard would necessarily get me a good job, and I don’t recall ever thinking that that had been promised. However, I did recognise that if I didn’t, there was a qualification barrier that meant that I definitely wouldn’t be able to follow certain paths that I really was interested in. So, I took the chance. Actually, I took it twice because I did an unfunded postgraduate degree.
The recession hasn’t prevented my employment, though it certainly made things harder when I applied for the role I am currently starting. But I don’t blame anyone else for this, I’m aware that I’m one of thousands of well-qualified graduates, and I was never under the impression that I was guaranteed a graduate level job. The mismatch is a function of increasing graduates against a retracting economy. These things happen, unfortunately, and I’m just pretty thrilled that the risks I took seem to be paying off. I have every sympathy for those whose didn’t, but I’m not sure it’s anyone’s fault, really, or that there’s a huge amount that can be done. Even getting rid of internships isn’t going to change the make-up of the economy in any substantial way.
@All – great debate today – thanks to everyone for your contributions!
@Lizzie – Since i think you’re new to Graduate Fog, I just want to make clear that you are welcome to disagree with anybody on this site – we love a heated debate here! However, I feel that your latest comment to Christopher (‘Please stop whinging’) was disrespectful since he had taken the trouble to clearly (and politely) explain why he disagreed with your views.
If you would like to respond further, please adjust your tone. I will not approve any more comments that are dismissive or rude toward my users.
Tanya
Just to deal with a few of Christopher’s points:
“When the economic situation improves, those “highly skilled older people” with “much bigger problems” will have experience and contacts to aid them in getting back into their chosen industry at the level they were in prior to the economic difficulties.” – 1. What are they doing now, before the recovery kicks in? 2. I don’t know what experience you have of employment, but it is a lot, LOT harder for older workers (say 40+) to get a new job than younger workers, regardless of contacts/experience etc.
“When the situation improves and they do eventually apply for “graduate” positions, they will also be deemed by potential “graduate- level” employers to have little relevant experience at an appropriate level” Utterly false, most employers (and I’m speaking as one myself) highly value the office experience/work ethic this demonstrates.
“a fairly remunerated, stable and suitable position is an “inner most ambition”?” Call centre jobs are usually fairly remunerated and stable, and in the context of high levels of unemployment and an economic crisis, any job is a ‘suitable position’ for someone leaving university with no meaningful work experience.
Taking this view isn’t ageist, it’s realist. It’s not fair that graduates 10 years ago had it easier, it’s not fair that the last government effectively mis-sold degrees to students, but graduates aren’t the only group suffering at the moment. It’s not fair that swathes of people with young families who have worked hard all their lives are being made redundant. This isn’t a great conspiracy to keep the youth of today downtrodden, it’s the reality of Britain in 2010. The situation will improve eventually – all these things are cyclical – but for the moment it’s a case of grin and bear it. For everyone.
@Lauren
I probably shouldn’t have used the word “guarantee”. I certainly don’t believe that anyone, regardless of what they study and what industry they are trying to get into is or should be guaranteed a certain role through doing a degree. However I do think that the general feeling among my generation (I applied for and started my undergraduate degree in 2004 and also did an unfunded PG degree in 2008) is that we were “sold” the idea, by our secondary education institutes and by the universities we studied at, that getting a degree would mean we would be in a very favourable and positive position in the job market and would be well placed to work in the industry of our choice. Interestingly I remember feeling that the way language degrees are sold (my BA was in modern languages) in terms of the employment opportunities they open up (“language graduates are qualified to work in a number of different fields directly related to their degree as well as to apply their knowledge to opportunities which require a non subject specific degree level education”) was a good thing whereas now it sends off alarm bells and sounds more like “although you may have acquired several potentially valuable transferable skills you are not actually trained or qualified for any career or profession in particular ; what you do with these skills is therefore up to you”… Basically my point is that I don’t feel like I was anywhere near as well informed as I would have liked to have been before making my decision to go to university and study the degree I studied. That is partially my fault but it is also partially the fault of our education system. My second issue is with the careers advice I was provided with once I completed my degree which was, in a word, expensive. My university actually expected me to pay for careers consultations after I graduated… So I feel let down by the secondary and tertiary education system, particularly with regards to the careers advice and vocational orientation (read “lack thereof) provided to me and many graduates from my generation.
Christopher, I’m pretty much an exact contemporary: Undergraduate 2004-2007, worked for two years, Postgraduate 2009-. I really just didn’t have that experience. None of my friends seem to think so either, that I’m aware. It’s not something that we ever discuss, to be honest. Maybe we were all really lucky, but we are all employed doing something. One thing that we do all have in common, I’d say, is that we’ve been open to pretty much anything. Mostly graduate positions, but those who don’t hold graduate positions don’t seem to feel degrees weren’t sold correctly. I agree careers advice wasn’t brilliant, but I was aware that there would be thousands of graduates leaving university when I did, and – whilst a good degree from a good university be a big help – it was still a gamble. My postgraduate degree, even more so. The economy retracted and I would argue that that has had a defining effect on the graduate employment rate. But if top financiers can claim legitimately not to have expected that, how could careers advisors? Had the economy continued expanding at a pace to match so-called knowledge economy growth, it could potentially have been a different story. I don’t think it’s fair, but I don’t think anyone is really at fault.
@Lauren
That’s just it. I’m not blaming the economic slump for the way things are going regarding graduation prospects. I think that the economic crisis has certainly accentuated things but I believe that the trend towards the devaluation of university degrees began long before the crisis. I’m not blaming the careers industry for the way things have turned out nor do I blame it for not having predicted the economic problems the world would face today-that would be silly. What I am saying is that I feel that the secondary education sector (or at least my, my family’s and my friends’/colleagues’ experiences of it, across the UK) has been mis-selling a university education for a long time, whether for reasons linked to their own agenda or out of sheer ignorance as to the realities graduates (particularly those with non-vocational degrees) face in the modern job market. I don’t feel like 16-18 year olds are provided with anywhere near a sufficient level of information on which to base their higher education/training decisions. I also don’t feel (again, from personal experience as a student and an employee within two universities) that university careers advice departments (directly funded by the students studying at the university) are measuring up to students’ needs. There are certainly many examples of good and bad practice in this sector, but in general, I feel that both students making education related decisions at 18 as well as graduates are being let down by our education system. We are being sold something which is no longer the truth. I’ve mentioned it before; my sister who is 18 is being encouraged by her school (and society) to go to university, without considering or being prompted to consider how it will affect her employability and financial situation. And of course it comes down to individual responsibility and accountability but in my opinion we are encouraged to be much too frivolous about our choice of higher education/training (or lack thereof). Perhaps you had a much more positive experience than I did, but I still feel that my viewpoint is valid and is clearly shared by many others.
@Simon
We clearly have different opinions of what a 22 year old who has invested 20+K and 4 years of their time on their education should be doing to make ends meet…
Without belittling call centre work I think that arts/humanities graduates, although lacking in specific marketable business skills, are still capable of carrying out much more intellectually challenging, rewarding and financially better remunerated work and I don’t feel that it’s wrong to say so. Graduates work hard to achieve their qualification and gain valuable skills; they should be given an opportunity to train and develop and to do so in a suitable role. As Tanya says: “If this kind of job is a likely outcome of investing in a university education, I think this should be made clear to young people before they sign up to such enormous debt.”
I basically feel that the numbers of people studying for degrees is too high, particularly those studying for non-vocational qualifications as I did, and I would like to see the government and the education system provide young people with a more realistic forecast of their options with a degree that does not qualify them to carry out a certain profession, as I feel that young people are essentially being “tricked” at the minute. This would then encourage them to choose more vocational options, with which they would be more likely to find suitable employment.
“Too many young people go [to university] because it’s expected of them” basically sums up my point on this. (http://tinyurl.com/2dopqr7)
Another article shows that what I mentioned above is starting to occur:
“This week’s A-level results showed that pupils were increasingly shunning so-called “soft” subjects in favour of science, economics and maths.” (http://tinyurl.com/37fq7zq)
I feel that the UK needs to make university education more transparent with regard to employment opportunities and it needs to be openly discussed more in society as a whole so that a clear message reaches young people deciding on their next step. There is a stigma attached, particularly among the British middle-class, to discussing career options and vocational education choices which really is much less widespread in other European countries. We need to address this or else we will continue to send our young people to university to acquire degrees which employers are increasingly valuing less and a debt they are not likely to ever be able to pay off.
@Lauren
And I really vehemently disagree with the idea that graduates should be “open to pretty much anything” and that we should be content if we are “employed doing something”. I feel that the situation many graduates find themselves in, in being unable to successfully market their skills and find employment in their chosen industry is down to a combination of things; their lack of sufficient and current knowledge about the job market in general and the chronic mismanagement of their education and qualifications (both the fault of the individual and society/the education system in general). If I was 16, had mediocre GCSE’s and had invested nothing in my education beyond what I was obliged to then, by all means, I should be “open to pretty much anything” and content to be “employed doing something”. However, if I had invested an additional 5 years + of my time and effort plus accrued 23k+ of debt I’m afraid that I don’t feel like I’m being at all entitled to suggest that I should be more picky in what I do. From personal experience of working in a careers service of a UK university as well as making use of the service as a student I was shocked and disappointed at how prevalent that exact attitude that graduates should be “open to pretty much anything” is. Personally, like most non-vocational graduates, I was advised to apply to graduate schemes (which receive absurd numbers of applications and which I therefore have little if any chance of being successful in), one of which, ironically enough, was a “bilingual” call centre role in which I could “use my language skills”, all while being paid the same as a monolingual call centre worker…. Does that make sense? This is mainly due to the careers advisers’ lack of knowledge with regard to non-traditional industries or those opportunities and possibilities which exist for humanities graduates. I spent a miserable year working in soul-destroying, badly paid jobs whilst studying for an MA and saw absolutely no way of achieving my goals in the current climate. So I took the route of entrepreneurship, against the advice of the careers adviser I spoke to who believed that I should seek work in just about anything just for the “experience”, and left the UK, exercised my right as an EU citizen to live and work elsewhere, set up a successful business, directly using the knowledge and skills I gained from my degree, and now happily and successfully work for myself. If I had listened to the advice I’d been given I would, most likely, still be miserable in the UK, in dead end jobs, struggling to make ends meet. Careers advice needs to improve; it’s not current, it’s not accurate and it’s not focused.
I think you’ve interpreted my “open to anything” comment a little widely, I perhaps phrased it badly. I’ve found that the best way to find work is to be as open as you feel is reasonable. So, for example, in seeking work after graduation I didn’t aim myself at one particular industry; I applied for things that I’d never heard and so perhaps weren’t over applied for. This included some non-graduate stuff that I felt offered progression. I ended up doing a graduate job that was very interesting, but took about 10 minutes to describe to people. Perhaps a better illustration of this is in seeking postgraduate funding – my overall goal was to get PhD funding, and this meant being prepared to apply for strange grants in things I’d never heard of previously, as opposed to the big obvious ones. Indeed, it was a (very) small award to study something I wasn’t previously familiar with at Master’s level that set the course for my PhD.
I think it might be useful for me to mention that I am 44, a mature graduate with a Psychology and English degree who graduated in 2008. I have many years of pre-uni work and life experience, but I went to uni basically because I am fairly ecologically and morally minded and was basically fed up with years of scrappy, low-paid office jobs (e.g BT call centres, part-time jobs in newspaper advertising departments etc). I was brought up with the idea that a degree would get me a better job, and spent years wanting to go to uni but not having the confidence to believe that I could get a degree (I won’t go into that, but it was almost certainly what stopped me from going to uni for so long). As I said, I graduated in 2008, just when the recession hit. Nevertheless, I still expected, based on what I had been told during my younger years and during uni, that my degree would get me a well-paid job. Since graduating I have been temping through an agency with periods of intermittent unemployment (the last spell for five months). I now work for £8 an hour doing fairly basic data input for the lettings division of an estate agents, and thats only temporary, probably will last to Christmas, if that. I have bags of experience, and even I can’t get into a permanent job at a decent wage, never mind a grad-level job. I am absolutely furious!! I basically see the problem as more global in nature, the government panders to the multinational corporations and the banks. The banks essentially started the recession, while the corporations are basically ringing in their hands in glee that they now have loads of low-paid ‘slaves’ in western countries, in addition to others across the globe who are treated far worse. The bulk of the population now, as far as I can see, has to put up with low pay and poor conditions, and that now includes graduates. Meanwhile, the bosses ‘cherry pick’ as they see fit. This situation is totally intolerable and we need to make much of a bigger stink about it as far as I can see. I didn’t go to uni just to spend the rest of my life earning a measly £7 to £8 an hour, I went to uni to get away from that and to get a competitive edge on those who don’t have degrees. The government, business and the country as a whole has let us down, and we should be much more angry about it. Time for a rebellion of some sorts.
@Robin
“The banks essentially started the recession, while the corporations are basically ringing in their hands in glee that they now have loads of low-paid ‘slaves’ in western countries, in addition to others across the globe who are treated far worse. The bulk of the population now, as far as I can see, has to put up with low pay and poor conditions, and that now includes graduates. Meanwhile, the bosses ‘cherry pick’ as they see fit. This situation is totally intolerable and we need to make much of a bigger stink about it as far as I can see. I didn’t go to uni just to spend the rest of my life earning a measly £7 to £8 an hour, I went to uni to get away from that and to get a competitive edge on those who don’t have degrees. The government, business and the country as a whole has let us down, and we should be much more angry about it. Time for a rebellion of some sorts.”
YES, YES, YES!!! I couldn’t agree more! It’s fascinating to hear your experiences of the job market as a mature graduate as you have that one thing that most twenty-something graduates are lacking-experience! It’s the lack of experience in the working world that is cited by employers and society at large as the reason why university graduates are expected to “start at the bottom”, in increasingly lower paid positions, and the reason why we’ve got to the point when the situation is so corrosive and exploitative that graduates are not expected and encouraged to “intern” for long periods of time for no pay! If you have been unsuccessful in finding a job you deem suitable then what hope do the rest of us have? As you say, the situation is absolutely critical and we need to make a much bigger fuss about this.
@Lauren
By its very definition “open to anything” is not at all ambiguous and therefore, I would have thought, not really open to interpretation as such. 🙂 Nonetheless, I take your point; I understand that flexibility and openness are necessary and always has been , in anyone’s job hunt, however I just feel that what we, as graduates, are being encouraged to settle for nowadays just isn’t good enough. If we all end up in badly paid work then the government needs to stop selling a university education as a way to “better yourself” and access a greater range of (better paid) jobs to the increasing numbers of 18 year olds choosing to go to university.
@Christopher
Absolutely! It’s become an almost fascist situation in this country in which we are all expected to do what the corporations and their snivelling political supporters expect us to do. They choose the candidates that ‘have the right attitude’ (and who are also, often in my view, beautiful, young and charismatic as graduates should be – mature graduates??? We just get a degree for something to do or as a hobby surely?). If you disagree with making as much money as you can as fast as you can (often for someone else who has loads of it already) then you’re not suitable, if you want to do something for others or for the environment, then you’re not suitable, if you’re not trendy and hip and speak in the right way and listen to the right bands etc, then you’re not suitable – and this emphasis on ‘networking’ makes that worse, as it enables people to judge you before you’ve even opened your mouth. You’re right Christopher, I have lots of skills and qualities, but they have often been disregarded, because they’re the WRONG skills and qualities – I’m not a snivelling property salesperson, or a marketer, or a banker – I’m someone who wants to make the world a better place. The trouble is that most firms these days have bought into ‘turbocapitalism’, the ethic of which is to rob the planet and most of the humans on it of as much resources as possible while there’s still time to do so, most of the wealth going to the minority of course. I don’t get noticed because I’m not ‘corporate’ enough (and I’m also 44 – ageism is alive and well in the UK sadly). The rest of you don’t get noticed because you don’t have the experience. And a degree certificate? About as much use as a sheet or bogroll it seems. I also very much agree with your last point, if we all end up in badly paid work, what is the government doing? It’s lying to us, and to everybody. It’s lying for political gain, it’s an attempt to educate the morons out there so they can score political points, and when that doesn’t work, ‘oh we’ll just ignore graduates completely then and employ all the reprobates that can’t speak English properly’ (txt lngge rules OK U C) on the basis that ‘they have experience’ (in other words they’ve complied with the hierarchy’s demands to spend years photocopying and filing and being low paid without moaning about it). Selling degrees as a means of getting a competitive edge is just a blatant lie, it doesn’t give us an edge at all, because at the end of the day we’re all either corporate whores or dangerous rebels who deserve to be at the end of a police officer’s big stick. My suggestion? There’s a Facebook group calling for a general strike (as a reaction against the Condemn government primarily). Now that would be something!
@Christopher
All too true! What I find truly sad is that the same advice was being served up about a decade ago, when I was at uni. We might expect that the educational system itself would have learned a few lessons after the last recession and all the press about the changing needs of the workplace.
We encourage young people to listen to those in authority with experience, but it seems like many of the ones closest to them (and the most responsible to them and their parents for delivering current information!) are out of touch. One can still find scores of lists of famous graduates holding ‘X degree’ who managed to do well in finance or some other unrelated field, but that is as useful to school leavers as a list with Branson, Jobs, and Gates, who didn’t graduate at all. If students are asking what their qualifications in ‘X’ will really qualify them to do, or what will qualify them for ‘job title Y’: why not just answer? Be realistic and truthful in our responses, and let young adults be respected to make their own informed decision.
I seem to remember the same thing happening to me in 1993 when I left university, After applying for numerous jobs I eventually got a job as an amazingly over qualified office boy That was well worth entering higher education wasn’t it, in fact I don’t believe I have used anything I learned at university in the workplace over the last 17 years! (admittedly I was not saddled with the same debts that current students have, I managed to ge a student grant before the government jilted the current generation out of the free state paid university education they had when they were at university!)
What employer wouldn’t want a better class of worker? lol Ok, kidding aside, but many new grads really do need to get over themselves and get their nose out of the air re: call center work. It is an opportunity if you use it wisely. Consider this: the famous actress Jennifer Anniston was once a telemarketer.
@ sabrina
the vast of call centre work is in India
@ Matthew, clearly this article refers to UK-based call-centres.