“DO 4 WEEKS OF UNPAID WORK OR LOSE BENEFITS” UNEMPLOYED TOLD
Jobless graduates have been warned they could be ordered to complete a month of unpaid community work if it’s thought they could benefit from experiencing the “habits and routines” of working life.
Graduates who refuse or fail to complete at least 30 hours a week for a four-week period could find their jobseekers’ allowance payments (£50.95 for under 25s) are stopped for at least three months.
The news will come as a shock to the thousands of graduates who have been struggling to find work for long periods of time and have lost their confidence and motivation.
It could also feel like a kick in the teeth to those in mounting debt after their teachers, parents and politicians all encouraged them to go to uni in the first place – only to find that now they’ve graduated, they can’t find a job.
The controversial proposals are part of a radical government agenda aimed at cutting the £190bn-a-year welfare bill and breaking what the coalition has called the “habit of worklessness.”
The measures come as part of what work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith calls a new ‘contract’ with the 1.4million people on jobseekers’ allowance. A source close to the proposals said:
“We know there are still some jobseekers who need an extra push to get them into the mindset of being in the working environment and an opportunity to experience that environment.
“This is all about getting them back into a working routine which, in turn, makes them a much more appealing prospect for an employer looking to fill a vacancy, and more confident when they enter the workplace. The goal is to break the habit of worklessness.”
But shadow work and pensions secretary Douglas Alexander said that the plans were flawed:
“The Tories have just abolished the future jobs fund, which offered real work and real hope to young people… What they don’t seem to get about their welfare agenda is that without work it won’t work.”
Graduate Fog has several questions:
– Is forcing people to work for free even legal? From my research into unpaid internships, I’d say it isn’t. If somebody is doing the job of a ‘worker’ (tick) and has responsibilities to turn up at certain times (tick) and perform certain duties (tick) then they must be paid the National Minimum Wage. Or will the government claim that this work should be an exemption from our existing laws?
– Could down-on-their-luck graduates be lumped in with ‘dole scroungers’? As far as I’m aware, the proposals haven’t specified which groups will be most likely to receive these orders – but I’ve seen no indication that they won’t be applicable to everybody, across the board. It seems that any jobseeker who it’s believed could benefit from experiencing the ‘habits and routines’ could be forced to do this work. Who will make this judgment, what will be their criteria and will these decisions be fair?
– Will being ordered to do community work help or humiliate unemployed graduates? Whilst I agree that routine and contact with the outside world is helpful when job hunting, I’m uneasy about the idea of forcing people to do this – especially as seems to be the kind of work that is often associated with community service done by those who have committed a crime (litter picking etc). Last time I looked, being unemployed wasn’t a crime…
*Is compulsory community work for jobless graduates a good idea?
Do you think it would be helpful or humiliating? If this isn’t the right approach, what is? And is being unemployed really a ‘habit’ – or is the reality more complicated than that?
That is shocking I am a recent graduate who is claiming job seekers and I’d rather lose a few months money than work for free like that it would humiliating and a great confidence knock. Criminals are made to do community service and I agree that being unemployed is not a crime. Graduates shouldn’t be put into the same category as people who are claiming because they are lazy there should be a different system in order for graduates to land a job, the personal advisors havn’t got a clue about graduate jobs and can only help with jobs like retail or admin which would only be a temporary job until something better comes along. I hope this new proposal isn’t brought into action as it doesn’t help the unemployment situation at all.
Well done breaking this down and assessing this proposal’s weaknesses. I just want suggest that opposition to graduates being made to do volunteer work could wander into the realm of classiscm. Bear with me, please — I am on your side.
It is a terrible fate that so many who have paid thousands in fees — after being encouraged to go to uni, as you pointed out — have been dumped into a jobless void. But please keep in mind that many ‘dole scroungers’ couldn’t have afforded to go to university in the first place. If they’re forced to do community service and graduates are not, this will suggest that the classes who can afford uni have also inadvertently funded a ‘get out of community service’ loophole.
For the sake of fairness and equality, I think we need to completely oppose enforced community work. Look at the US system of forced prison labour, which directly benefits for-profit corporations. Let’s not go there, graduate or not.
@Abi
Thanks for your comments! I am well aware of the unpleasant undertones that discussion of these issues can present, which is why I was careful when writing this post (or at least I thought I was!)
In identifying two groups of unemployed people – graduates and dole scroungers – I did NOT intend to imply that these are the ONLY groups – ie that if you’re not one then you must be the other! I absolutely do NOT think that all non-graduates who are unemployed are ‘dole scroungers’ – and I apologise if this is how the text reads as it is not how it was intended!
However, Graduate Fog is a website for graduates, and as such I am looking at this story from their perspective primarily, which is why i feel it is fair to raise the points that they are in enormous debt etc.
This policy is questionable from all angles, no matter which portion of the unemployed pie you are part of / have most empathy with. But this site will continue to look at this policy from the perspective of graduates, since that is the community that we represent. I hope you feel that this is fair and that this clarifies things.
I actually think that this is the point that @Kate Burton was making too – she was proposing a way of separating the deserving from the undeserving, as well as underlining that graduates feel that the traditional job centre services are not designed for graduates (which they weren’t, historically).
@Kate Burton, have I reflected your views properly? I am not surprised that you feel shocked by this policy and how it could affect you. It does indeed seem very harsh that the (already not-great) situation that you’re in now could be seen as something that deserves something that looks very similar to ‘punishment’…
@Abi, can you tell us a bit more about how this policy works in the US?
A few points/comments:
1)My understanding was that 30 hours/week was the MAXIMUM level, not minimum as stated in your second paragraph.
2)The full details are yet to be announced, but I thought this was for long-term jobseekers (2+ years), a category into which very few graduates fall.
3) Is there an argument that graduates who “have lost their confidence and motivation” could benefit from a return to a short period of structured work?
Yes that is the point I was trying to make it does seem like a punishment it’s not the graduates fault that they havn’t got a job if they’ve been looking. I don’t think that putting everyone in the same category is right and there should be other ways to get graduates into work, if the work placement was that of a company you are interested in working in then that would benefit graduates but doing meanial jobs like sweeping the streets is not going to help matters. The government needs to think of other ways to get people into work because this clearly isn’t right. I am shocked but not totally as the present Torie government are making huge cuts and aren’t very sympathetic of people who are claiming job seekers even if these people are graduates who would rather be working such as myself.
I don’t understand what forced prison labour in the US has to do with this though?
Hi, Tanya,
Goodness, no, you definitely didn’t come across as suggesting there were only two groups, or that the unemployed are one or the other! And I was quoting ‘dole scroungers’ in the same way you were, from a rather sardonic point of view. I know this wasn’t your personal terminology for anyone who is unemployed and that was clear in your original blog. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.
I wasn’t necessarily saying that graduates would be gettings special treatment if they were to be absolved from doing forced volunteer work (because that’s what it is!). I’ve been following your blog for some time and I agree with your views on unpaid internships in all of their incarnations. I agree with you that this proposal comes into that category and it is completely logical for you to discuss it with that in mind.
I understand both your point and Kate’s, about separating ‘deserving from undeserving’, but I believe the entire proposal will continue the class divide and that perhaps separation of any group is not the way forward. Maybe students, graduates and all other unemployed people could unite against the proposal. It could be that be differentiating themselves from others who are unemployed, graduates could be weakening an argument against forced community service. What do you think?
As for the US prison system, I am no expert and the websites I’ve seen are not necessarily unbiased, but prisoners in the US could be considered a slave group. Here’s just one example:
http://www.darkgovernment.com/news/slavery-in-u-s-prison-system/
It may seem like a strong statement to compare this with the coalition’s proposal (and possibly unpaid internships), but forcing unpaid labour on anyone without a choice is really only slavery.
Well done bringing up this discussion, Tanya.
Gaining work experience is a good idea for those currently unemployed; however I do share your concerns about the government’s approach. Firstly, how much choice will will the unemployed have in choosing the form of unpaid work they want to get? I mean it is hardly worthwhile if say, a media graduate (the cliche I know) were to to be told to do unpaid work picking vegetables from a field. It might make employers think in future that you are not serious about your chosen field.
If I am honest I think I would feel humiliated. Yes, that is a snobbish view – but after spending four years working towards a degree it makes you wonder what all the effort was for. I really envy graduates who have completed their degree in engineering, science or finance. It is far more marketable and much more easier to get a job. After applying to 13 accountancy firms, to date I have only managed to get 3 interviews – not bad I suppose with a MA in History with Politics; but managing expectations is hard. So, despite not being ‘work idle’, I suspect I would be classed as such.
With regards to the legality I suspect it is a grey area – isn’t it always. By the way Tanya, I do not think they need to legally be paid the National Minimum Wage. Is it not the case that if you are on a training scheme or working for the government that you can be paid less than the minimum wage?
@Sean
Re your points
1) The Guardian says 30 hours is the minimum – do you have another source that says different?
2) I wasn’t aware of the 2 year period criteria, that’s interesting. (Do you have a link to that?) Although it doesn’t rule out graduates. In the post Are disabled graduates getting jobs? some grads came out saying they’d been jobless for YEARS…
3) Yes, I agree that there is an argument that a short period of structured work could be beneficial to graduates who have lost their confidence – i’m just trying to work out whether it over-rides the humiliation / ‘punishment’ factor here. Plus it really does depend on the kind of work they are made to do. How would I feel after 30 hours of litter picking? Better or worse? I’m honestly not sure…!
@Kate Burton
I think i’m inclined to agree… Any ideas though? How can they help create jobs?
@Abi I love this idea of ‘forced volunteer work’ – that says it all really!
Thanks for the info about the US prison system, it’s really interesting.
And I’m glad you’re enjoying the debate!
@David Gray
Thanks for being so honest, I think I would feel humiliated too… It’s very easy for people to say they think this is a good idea – as long as it’s not them who might have to do it!
I disagree – I have a strong suspicion that it isn’t legal. One of the exceptions for paying the NMW is work done as part of a course, but this isn’t part of a course. The government / council or whoever ‘hires’ these workers can’t just call something ‘training’ and say they don’t have to pay their workers, whatever the circumstances. But it would be good to get a legal eye on this!
Many graduates are struggling to find work. The government does not help disabled people including disabled graduates. The government is not increasing the support for graduates, but the government is increasing the fees and making life harder for graduates to get jobs.
People with disabilities cannot work. Many people with asperger syndrome and autism cannot work without support, they need support to apply for jobs !!!
Yes, that was the exception I was thinking of. It would be good to get a legal eye on it; ironic, however though that the government is slashing Legal Aid.
I just think that this policy has more to do with appeasing readers of The Sun and The Daily Mail rather than solving the long term problem that has been created by the credit crunch. In the long term I accept that government cannot continually create jobs – ultimately the majority of jobs for graduates will have to come from the private sector. No doubt businesses will desire a lessening in their tax exposure for the purpose of creating jobs – but that would hardly help bring down the deficit.
The other option that the Universities Minister – David Willetts – proposed was to start up your own business. Which is fine – if you have the capital to start one, a unique selling point and are good at drumming up business. However, the banks are still being stingy with credit while freeloading on the bailout and trying to think of a unique idea with a USP is nigh on impossible.
Surprise, surprise, most newly employed long term jobless practise “good work habits” (getting up early enough to arrive on time, etc) from Day 1 of their new jobs. That’s what the research consistently says, from the recessions of the 1980s onwards.
This nasty little scheme aims to take the heat off failing politicians. It’s so much easier for government to stigmatise the victims of their policies (or lack of ideas) as lazy, incompetent louts than for ministers to do the hard thinking, planning and alliance-building necessary to create new sources of adequately paid jobs.
I think the goverment should think about getting graduates on jobseekers more help with finding permanent jobs rather than temporary shop jobs or xmas jobs. I think there needs to be personal advisers that can relate to graduates and have the relevant knowledge to be able to help rather than it being down to us. If the goverment is insisting on making people go on work experience is should be with a company that you want to work for and will benefit you in the long run.
@ All – Would any grads like to speak to a journalist about this? Siobhan at Sky News would love to hear from you! She says:
Looking for: Job seeking graduate interested in commenting on welfare reform on Sky News. There are often as many as 70 applications per graduate job vacancy — are you worried about having to take just any job rather than follow the career you’ve worked towards? Are you worried about being forced into a job you don’t want just to get you “off welfare and into work?” Is it fair to ask you to work for free to make you more employable? Perhaps you have already worked for free to gain experience and you are still struggling in today’s tough job market? We’d love to hear from you — Siobhan at Sky News on 020 7585 4428. siobhan.trenholm@bskyb.com
Big thanks to anyone who wants to have their say about this dodgy policy!
Lets be clear about this, this nasty little idea is the brainchild of Ian Duncan-Smith and William Hague. Both of them are Thatcherite clones. I remember very clearly them banging on about workfare during John Major’s government over ten years, and now they’re still trying to get it in place. The only people that this scheme will benefit are the bosses of corporations who will rush to capitalize on what is basically tantamount to slave labour. Although I am proud of the status that graduates have or should have over non-graduates, this is the time when everyone, regardless of whether they have a degree or not should stand together, graduate shoulder to shoulder with non-graduate. The Tories need to be kicked into touch, again, and I’m pleased to see on the news today that they have at last got a real taste of the anger felt on the streets. And its creating jobs too, I’m sure there are quite a few glazing firms around Millbank who will be pleased at the new business right now. Eat that Cameron, Hague and Smith!!
I’ve just emailed Siobhan, I don’t claim Jobseekers because of lack of NI credits and living with partner, but if she wants me to talk about it I would be happy to comment.
Could someone explain what happens to claimants AFTER they have completed the four week scheme? Will they still get to claim benefit? Plus if they still are unable to get a job, would they have to go on the course again? Finally, while people are on the scheme, will the government exclude them from unemployment figures?
In any event, it is hardly assured that the government will succeed in changing the system. After all, Labour spinned for years that they were cutting waste and hardly anything was achieved.
Plus, I have to say I am surprised that the Deputy News Editor of Sky News came across this website. Things are looking up for more exposure for the website.
I’m really not sure about the minimum wage argument. They are being paid £50.95 per week. Over the course of a year, they are required to work just 30 hours a week for 4 weeks.
So in a year, they receive around £2650 and work just 120 hours. This equates to over £22 an hour (much more than the minimum wage).
As long as they are claiming for around 17 weeks before being asked to do the 120 hours work, they will be receiving at least the minimum wage.
I heard this morning that they’ve added a clause which says that if three jobs are refused by the claimant benefit can be taken away for three years.
I think this is ridiculous especially with what I have just found out from my local job centre.
I live in Middlesbrough but have just found out I have an interview in London on Monday at 9am. I can’t afford to get to London but I thought the Job Centre would fund the travel costs and up to £50 for accomodation as they did it once before for me to go to Milton Keynes. I go there yesterday and they tell me because I have used the TIS before they will only fund half (at most) of my costs. I am not sure that I will be able to raise the money to get to London now.
I asked them why this was the case and they said it was because of the economic situation that we are in. What about my economic situation? If I get a job won’t it save them money because I won’t be on benefits?
The Job Centre amaze me.
@Wayne
Might be worth speaking to a more senior manager at JobCentrePlus whenever you get an unhelpful response like this. Senior managers have more leeway on decisions, anyway, and you always have to consider the possibility that the first member of staff you spoke to got the policy wrong.
If all else fails, let the Job Centre know you’ll be complaining to your MP … sometimes that helps. Good luck!
I found that the Job Centre was really helpful in terms of helping me to get to my interviews. I had to get a return to London which cost £98 on three separate occasions and they gave me a free travel pass so I could exchange this for a ticket. All you need to supply in the place where you are going for the interview and then a contact. This does not have to be the employer, it can be the recruitment agent. It helped me get to both of the interviews for my current job.
Though one thing I must say is how easy it was for me to get a job. I went travelling in March after being made redundant. I came back in July and within three weeks I had a new job. It is with an international organisation where competition was fierce. I did not go to a top university and I studied English & Drama. I have to wonder if people are not applying to jobs because they may consider that they should be getting paid more than £20k??
*rant coming your way*
A friend of mine and I graduated at the same time. I immediately started work in a school canteen, while hunting for jobs, then did a week of direct sales, which was the worst experience I’ve ever had ever, then got a job in said school running part of their catering dept, and freelanced as a proofreader along side it. All while applying for an average of five jobs a day. My friend applied for about twenty jobs in six months, worked a bit in a bar before deciding it was too tiring, and signed on. I was furious because his family are decidedly upper-middle class and he didn’t need the money, and because he reasoned that he’d make more money signing on while job-hunting than he would working several jobs, like the rest of us. THAT’S the go-getting attitude that modern graduates need! He also had the nerve to belittle my two jobs as ‘not real’ because they wouldn’t give me any career advancement.
Guess which one of us has a job now?
Clue, it’s not me. Git.
Thanks for the advice guys. I will speak to a senior manager when I go there tomorrow and if that fails I will threaten them with my MP haha…
In my experience, and that of several people I’ve spoken to, JobCentre Plus are not great with people whose circumstances don’t fit into neat boxes (ie most people). I am particularly concerned as to how they treat freelancers and business startups. More and more people (including me) are now going this route, but most need to claim JSA in the short term until they are sufficiently established, and the JobCentre can’t make head nor tail of them.
@Maxine
When you plan to start a business, it’s often helpful to find out about your entitlement to benefits / other help from the state BEEFORE you speak to JobCentrePlus staff. Sounds counter-intuitive I know …
Possible free sources of information on these points include:-
– CAB (they’re often much more clued up on benefits items than those responsible for administering benefits – however, they’re extremely busy)
– agencies promoting business development in your area (do you still have a Business Link or a sub-unit of the local Chamber of Commerce / local authority in your area?)
– the business banking side of your own bank.
Good luck!
I’m doing data input for a research company and also writing the odd article, but be warned freelancing is very very tough – its not just getting the gigs its also coping with the loneliness of staying at home while working, and the money is mostly crap, unless you can get a reputation going that is – but you have to be really lucky to get anywhere special in my experience. Not an easy option.
I am back from the JC. I had to compromise but I succeeded. I am now taking a 6 – 7 hour coach trip to London – all travel and accomodation expenses paid.
@Wayne
A triumph! Well done! Graduate Fog changes lives once again – thanks all!
@CareersPartnershipUK – thanks for the advice. It’s not a business as such I’m starting, I’m freelancing as a journalist and copywriter.
@Robin Whitlock – I know it’s not an easy option by any means. And I’m terrified. But I’ve been forced into it by circumstances, there’s nothing else I can do.
Hey Maxine, I know, thats exactly what got me into freelancing, and why I’m still doing it. It helps if you have a bit of money behind you (I don’t) because there are numerous freelancing sites out there but they need a subscription for you to advertise your expertise on them (I don’t use them basically because I can’t afford to – yet). People Per Hour are worth checking out, and on the specific journalism front HoldTheFrontPage, but I signed up with them and didn’t get a single contact at all. Most of all you need naked aggression – the ability to keep on chucking out loads of query letters to as many suitable publications as you can think of whilst being thick skinned enough to not let the constant rejections get you down too much. That said, I’ve just had an article on racial prejudice among US Troops in Bristol during WW2 published in “Britain At War” magazine, available in Smiths right now, so you do get a break now and then if you constantly focus. Copywriting will probably be more lucrative then article writing, thats an area I need to break into really, which means I ought to go on a course or something in order to learn how to write for advertising. I would also make as much use as you can of Twitter and LinkedIn also. Sorry if you are already doing these things by the way…
By the way Maxine, I might be interested in some kind of collaborative effort if you think this might be useful to you. Let me know and I’ll post Tanya my email address for her to send on to you (or you can simply look me up on Facebook, Linkedin or Twitter if you wish).
Cheers!
Thanks Robin, I’ve sent you a LinkedIn request.
I am not very fantastic with English but I find this rattling easy to read.