BUT COULD TOUGH-GUY TACTICS BE A BAD MOVE FOR GRADUATES?
Graduate Fog welcomes RightsForInterns, a new website which aims to clarify the murky matter of unpaid interns’ legal rights.
Created by the Trade Union Congress (the TUC – which battles for workers’ rights), the site declares that the issue is black and white. If you’re doing work that’s of value to your employer, you are ‘likely to have a right to the minimum wage’ and holiday pay — end of story.
On the face of it, this news is all good for graduates doing – or considering – unpaid internships as a ‘way in’ to your chosen career.
However, I fear the TUC has over-simplified a complex problem. It seems they have failed to understand the subtle politics of the delicate relationship between interns and employers.
I also fear that graduates who follow their advice to insist on payment could find that the tactic backfires.
As regular readers of this blog will know, I agree that the matter of unpaid work experience needs to be resolved, sharpish. Too many graduates are working for free for long periods, with no guarantee of paid work at the end of it.
And too many of you are being excluded from these ‘opportunities’ because you cannot afford to work for free, don’t live in London or don’t have the ‘connections’ graduates often need in order to even know about these placements in the first place.
However, I believe the solution to this problem must be collaborative. We must get employers on-board if anything is to really change. We must argue our case and convince them that the current ways are not in their best interests – or yours.
Of course, making interns (and employers) aware of your legal rights is an important first step. But I fear that publishing a list of interns’ rights and suggesting you go off and demand them is unlikely to improve your career prospects. I’m concerned you are more likely to end up shooting yourself in the foot.
The relationship between intern and employer is extremely delicate — and I can already see several problems with the heavy-handed approach the TUC suggests that interns take.
1) Many employers insist that they are doing you the favour in having you in their workplace — not the other way around. They say that usually you get more out of being there (for your CV), than they do.
To them, they say your work is simply not worth the minimum wage, especially when it’s off-set against the time they have to take to supervise you during your placement. This is particularly true if the placement is a short one. By the time you’ve figured out how to use the photocopier, it’s time for you to go — and for your replacement to arrive. If you start demanding payment for these short placements, might they just stop offering them altogether?
2) The TUC should also realise that the whole point of a graduate internship is to make a good impression, show a ‘can-do’ attitude and a burning passion to succeed in this industry at any cost. Have the TUC bosses ever tried doing all that whilst asking for the minimum wage and holiday pay? I suspect it’s a tricky one to pull off.
Right or wrong, when you start an internship, the current assumption is that the employer has something you want (a job) — not the other way around.
I also fear that the TUC has not grasped that unpaid internships happen the most in really tough industries (politics, media etc) where bosses are intimidating, competition is stiff and ‘whingeing’ about your ‘rights’ is a really bad look — especially before you’ve even started your placement.
3) Which brings me to my concerns about the practicalities of enforcing interns’ rights. Making you aware of your rights is the easy bit. Who is going to enforce them? I’ve seen no suggestion that a new ‘Department for the Enforcement of Interns’ Rights’ has been set up. So I suspect it will be up to you — the interns — to do this for yourself. But how easy is that going to be in practice?
Many interns will feel intimidated by the idea of asking for pay for their placement — particularly in tough industries where you know internships are competitive. And, even if you do pluck up the courage, how likely is it that this conversation will be the start of a fruitful long-term relationship between you and this employer? Even if you get your way, I fear you won’t really win. Right or wrong, you’ll always be ‘that intern who made a fuss about money’ – a serious black mark against your name should a paid vacancy arise later. Again, I’m not say it’s right, I’m just saying I think it will happen.
4) Finally, what should interns do if their employer says No to their request for payment? The TUC’s site keeps mentioning the ‘landmark’ case of Nicola Vetta, an intern who took a TV production company London Dreams Motion Pictures to court.
Nicola not only won the expenses the company had promised (and failed) to pay her — she also won the minimum wage for the time she was there, something her employer had never said they would pay.
Clearly, this is interesting stuff. But is the TUC suggesting that every graduate denied payment for a placement threatens their employer with legal action — and carries it through to tribunal, if necessary?
This seems impractical — but it also seems unlikely to do a graduate’s career any favours. We do not hear what happened to Nicola, but I’d be surprised if she stepped straight from her court case into a long career in TV production.
Of course, I’m not saying interns should work for free. I’m just saying that equipping you with a list of your ‘rights’ and encouraging you to demand them is not a realistic solution to this complicated problem.
I think we need to be smarter than that. Rather than laying out your demands, I think we need to persuade employers of the business case for paying their interns. In other words, why it’s financially better for them to pay you than not to pay you.
One argument is that in limiting their interns to those who can afford to work for free, the employer is effectively de-selecting hundreds of (less well-off) candidates who could be a far better bet as long-term employees. (A little bird tells me that rich kids often have a teensy bit of an attitude problem).
This argument could be combined with the fact that we know that companies worry about their ethical reputation. I hear it’s becoming increasingly ‘bad PR’ to be known as an organisation that doesn’t pay its interns — especially for big companies who use unpaid interns on a long-term basis. Taking advantage of young people’s desperation for work and blatantly discriminating against candidates from poorer backgrounds are pretty tricky issues for employers to ‘spin’.
I think the ‘shame factor’ is a potentially lethal weapon here — and so far it’s been seriously under-used. Is it so difficult to imagine a world where admitting to using unpaid interns is nearly as embarrassing as admitting your shirt was made in a Bangladeshi sweatshop? Actually, I don’t think it is.
Do you agree? Comment below or contact Graduate Fog.
Whilst you make some fair points, it seems to me that you’re being far too optimistic about the power of “shame”. Some of the most disreputable employers (in terms of employee relations and work environment) are still getting hordes of applicants and considered to be the most desirable employer in their field e.g. Goldman Sachs – see their recent award – or Bloomberg.
The fact is that many of these recruiters are utterly shameless. In industries like investment banking, even their brightest salaried employees will be exploited and have their talents leveraged to create as much value as possible and then they’ll be left by the wayside, washed-up and burnt-out. These industries thrive on ludicrous levels of revenue and profit, with commensurate/appropriate financial reward to its staff, instead of employee relations or being well-regarded by the sector or society at large.
Your point may be reasonable for some more PR-oriented industries, but I fear that exploitative practices will continue unchanged in numerous other sectors. The only way to end this exploitation is to flag up that the practice of not paying interns is illegal. Certainly, in the short-run, some interns may shoot their company prospects in the foot by making (reasonable) demands. Nonetheless, someone has to start making sacrifices and pushing the envelope in order to get this issue recognised, at the forefront of discussion, and resolved with either clearer legislation or a bigger body of case law to establish unequivocal precedents that not paying interns is exploitative and illegal.
In an ideal world, your methods would be preferable, but in reality I can only see them being ineffectual or of limited power.
It’s certainly been the case that the historically ‘competitive’ industries have been among the worst offenders (politics is notorious). There’s a sort of ‘no whingers allowed’ attitude.
Certainly, in media there’s a prevailing view among those already ‘in’ that if you want the job badly enough, you’ll find a way to make an unpaid work placement work for you (kipping on someone’s floor, doing evening and saturday jobs, temping around the placement, etc).
While it’s certainly not right in any industry, I’m disturbed to see the work-for-free-first culture seep into all industries recently. For me, it’s the fact that it’s become the norm – and socially acceptable for employers – that is worrying. But, as I say, I hope this may be starting to turn. Whenever I meet company bosses, they’re always really keen to assure me that they do pay their interns. Of course, i can’t verify that they’re telling me the truth, but it shows that they obviously do care how their company is perceived by outsiders.
I’ve also noticed that unpaid placements seem to be getting longer and longer – often with little chance of a job at the end of it (not that the employer will tell you this).
I agree that we need to get tough on this issue – and I’m assured that there are movements happening to campaign on this issue. But I hope you understand that I couldn’t have posted that blog post about the TUC without pointing out that following their advice could have negative consequences to you, the individual. I think laws like this are only going to work if interns are supported in implementing them which, at the moment you simply aren’t.
This is another reason why I really want to build this site’s community. We can do so much more as a group than we can as individuals. Pressure groups like Interns Anonymous are doing a good job of promoting the cause but if we’re going to get anything done I think we need to be able to see this issue from all sides. I fear that shouting about how things ‘should’ be is not enough. I still think that dialogue is the way forward.
We can do so much more as a group than we can as individuals.
Hmmm, yes, well call me old fashioned, but isn’t this what unions are for?
It seems that you should be a natural supporter of the TUC’s work, but instead you’re criticising them, whilst using language which will clearly terrify interns into not persuing their rights under law.
BTW: would it be too much to ask for a bit of research on the subsequent career of Nicola Vetta before you use her in an argument? Cheers
Thanks for your comment TigerBear, but i stand by what I wrote. It’s not my intention to terrify anybody into doing anything, but I can’t put my hand on my heart and tell my users that taking the approach the TUC suggests is definitely the best thing for them to do, when I don’t believe that it is.
While I support the idea behind the TUC’s stance on unpaid internships, I still feel that in giving this advice like this they have demonstrated a clear lack of understanding of the realities of this sensitive situation. Pressure groups like http://www.InternAware.org are doing a good job of campaigning on this issue, but even they understand that it’s not as clear-cut as simply getting interns to demand pay from employers.
Re Nicola Vetta’s subsequent career following the tribunal, perhaps you can fill us in? I’m sorry you feel i was negligent in not investigating this further but I blog about a huge range of topics and as hard as I try to get things right, I’m afraid I can’t be an expert in everything! Thanks again x
Thanks for the response, Tanya. Its very much appreciated.
What I’d say is that the natural place for collaborative work to stop the exploitation of young people in unpaid internships is not between yourself and the companies that exploit them (as Gareth says, its not as if there’s a shortage of them) but between yourself and the unions. Why do the unions take the line that they do? Hmmm, long and bitter experience would be my guess.
I still feel that in giving this advice like this they have demonstrated a clear lack of understanding of the realities of this sensitive situation
I’m not an expert in the history of labour movements or anything, but arguing that unions don’t understand the reality facing individuals who challenge exploitative working conditions is an odd one to try and sell, I think.
Keep up the good work, though.
Best wishes
tb
It’s great to see passionate discussion on this topic. I work for WEXO (a match making network for interns and employers) and have been an intern myself. I certainly agree that getting more interns to know their rights and retain a sense of the value of their work is a step in the right direction. However, going on my own experience, the practical reasons Tanya mentioned realistically consider the position of the intern. While things obviously need to change, the situation calls for help in standing up for their rights. Interns are not in a strong position to do it themselves. This is why it is such a sensitive issue, interns are vulnerable a competitive graduate market. With regards to the ‘shame’ theory, I think with the increased awareness and specifically intern’s vulnerability, there is pressure for company policy to change. While to be seen as fair is more important for some organisations than for others, a vague trend may lead to a bigger shift in attitude in the long term. I do feel of course we cannot underestimate the ability of some companies to prioritise profit over ethics, so other measures need to be in place. Working together on this, bringing different perspectives to the table seems like the best way forward.
Thanks TB – it looks like we should agree to differ on this one! Keep reading though – and keep commenting too, we like a good debate on GF x
Tanya
Thanks for mentioning our Rights for Interns website (www.rightsforinterns.org.uk) and indicating your (qualified) support for it.
However, I think you are being quite unfair in depicting the TUC as being insensitive and unaware of the complex power relationships between interns and employers in the workplace. As one of the other commentators in this thread mentioned, if anyone has acquired accumulated knowledge of the difficulties in protecting peoples’ rights in the workplace over the years, its the trade union movement.
The purpose of the Rights for Interns website is to tackle one of the causes of the continuing exploitation of interns. That is the general low level of awareness of employment rights both by employers and interns themselves. A website alone is not going to change the world of work and it certainly isn’t going to help negotiate a better deal for you in your workplace. But it can contribute to the body of knowledge out there and raise awareness among interns of their rights to be paid, to paid holidays and other employment rights. Overcoming at least one hurdle.
I don’t see anywhere on the site where we suggest that interns then boldly go into their workplace and claim their rights, without due reference to their status or relationship with their employer. Of course, we know that interns are often isolated, vulnerable and anxious to make a good impression. That is the Catch 22 that so many are stuck in.
We believe (like you, I think) that collective action is the best means to tackle the imbalance of power in the workplace between worker and employer. That’s why we’re also keen on the website to demonstrate the benefits of joining a union and getting protection, either through the legal support that might be offered or, more importantly, through becoming part of a collective organisation that can bargain on your behalf.
Now, obviously, many interns are in workplaces with no union. This doesn’t mean that union membership would be of no use, far from it, but it means that they don’t have the benefits of collective bargaining. And as such they have to be careful in their approach to employers.
All the arguments you put forward around building a business case and seeking win-win situations with employers are sensible ones we’d agree with. Its exactly the kind of negotiating strategy unions use in collective bargaining situations.
Rights for Interns is a resource for interns. Nothing more. There’s a broader campaign in operation, one that involves the TUC, other unions, the NUS, Intern Aware, Interns Anonymous, Internocracy and others joining forces to make the case against intern exploitation.
We have already made big gains with the government sharpening guidance to employers, removing unpaid interns from its graduate talent pool website, raising the profile of interns with the enforcement agencies like the HMRC and developing new codes of practice in partnership with TUC and others. These are just steps down the road, but significant ones.
Unions in key sectors like broadcasting and journalism are also working with employers to establishing codes of practice, significantly both the NUJ and BECTCU have established sector specific codes that fall short of agreements but at least point employers in the right direction. BECTU have also made proposals for new co-operative ventures for the independent film sector which seek to find flexible arrangements that enable indies to continue to make low/no budget films but provide guarantees for joint ownership rights that help mitigate some of the worst cases of unpaid labour in their industry. Unite have also produced a model contract for the use of interns in parliament, another useful resource interns in that area can use to strengthen their case.
So, in summary, the website is one resource that forms part of a bigger and broader campaign. And unions are out in there in workplaces finding ways to offer practical (and collective) support to interns.
I hope this addresses some of your concerns. It seems to me that a more productive approach would be to join us in our campaign than offer misplaced criticisms.
Matt Dykes
Trades Union Congress
Thanks for commenting Matt – I agree that we are working for the same goal and that gaining knowledge about interns’ rights is an important first step for both interns and employers!
Forgive me if I have misunderstood the TUC’s advice to interns on this issue. You’re right that there is nothing on Rights for Interns site that specifically suggests challenging the employer, but given the number of times it mentions the words ‘rights’, ‘entitled’, and ‘should’, i fear interns may be confused by what they’re actually supposed to do next, once they’ve been made aware of their legal position.
I definitely came away with the impression that you were suggesting interns stick up for themselves more and start discussions with their employers and insist that they are paid for the work that they are doing / will do if they are accepted on the placement.
If this is not the case, to clarify for Graduate Fog’s users, how does the TUC suggest interns tackle the situation if:
a) they discover an unpaid placement they want to do, but can’t afford to work for free?
b) they are already working for free and want to ask for pay?
Thanks again for taking the time to contribute to Graduate Fog – it’s really appreciated. x
Tanya
I think the emphasis we were trying to place was that these are rights and entitlements. In nearly every case, unpaid working is illegal. I should add that all the advice we’ve provided on the site has been endorsed by HMRC.
But as I said before, we are well aware of the precarious nature of interns in the workplace. So caution is obviously required.
However, that said, to achieve a culture change we need to find ways to challenge employers who break the law and offer unpaid internships. The more people who lodge complaints and identify bad practice, the more we can turn this round.
With that in mind, I would respond to your two questions as follows:
a) If you have discovered an unpaid internship that you can’t afford to take, there’s very little you can do about that particular non-opportunity. But you can report it to HMRC. You can do this anonymously and in over 90% of cases they will investigate your complaint. This may not lead to a conviction but it will certainly alert the employer to the illegality of their offer and, as such, quite possibly alter their approach.
What I would also suggest is that you shop around. The majority of internships are paid and offer good experience. Don’t be put off by the minority of ignorant and/or cowboy employers who are looking for your free labour.
b) If you are currently working for free but feel you should be paid, I would suggest the following. First, consult our website and arm yourself with the facts and check out the links to further resources that we provide. Second, approach your employer utilising the range of strategies that are referred to in the above article. Focus on a win-win situation and build a business case. Third, consider the benefits and support you may get through trade union membership. In the absence of trade union support, consider potential sympathetic colleagues who may be able to advocate on your behalf as well.
Finally, if all else fails, keep a very good record of your work, the tasks you have performed, any evidence of expenses you might have received and a record of your working hours. You can claim for non-payment of national minimum wage after you have completed your internship and received your reference. In fact, at a county court, you can claim up to 6 years after leaving your current place of work.
Yes, much of this sounds like a burden on the intern. But hopefully in many cases, a productive discussion with an employer might work out. If that fails then unfortunately the law places an onus on you, but remember there are ways of doing this that don’t jeopordize your current placement. But there is support out there, not least of which from trade unions.
Hope this helps.
Matt
Thanks Matt – that really helps.
Just one question that I suspect the Foggers will want to know the answer to – How easy is it to claim the minimum wage after the internship has ended? I suspect a lot of my users are owed a fair bit of back pay!!
Does this always involve a lengthy legal battle, as with Nicola Vetta? Or is there an easier way for interns to get paid what they’re due?
Tanya
Tanya
Here’s a rough guide to claiming payment for natinoal minimum wage. For more information, Foggers should go to HMRC for advice.
How to claim the National Minimum Wage
Contact the Government’s Pay and Work Rights helpline (0800 917 2368 ; http://payandworkrightscampaign.direct.gov.uk/index.html )as soon as possible after the internship has ended. The helpline passes complaints about non-payment of the National Minimum Wage to the relevant inspectors at Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC). They will speak to the complainant to get the facts, and then contact the employer.
The good thing is that in more than 95 per cent of cases, the employer will simply pay up once HMRC comes knocking on their door. However, if that fails, you can choose to lodge an Employment Tribunal (ET) claim. At this stage, a further 9 out of 10 employers will settle up rather than going to tribunal. So in sum 99.5 per cent of employers simply pay up without fighting the case.
However, if they do choose to go to hearing and you want to carry on, HMRC will help you through the process and represent you in the tribunal at no cost to you. Furthermore, in cases where the ET time limit has expired, it is also possible to take a case for unpaid wages to the county court. Again, HMRC can help you with this process.
Many interns will want to be sure that they get a good reference and another job before trying to claim for the minimum wage against a former employer. Note that ET claims must be lodged within 12 weeks and 6 days of leaving employment, whilst county court claims must be made within 6 years. But remember that the longer you leave it, the harder it might be to prove underpayment, since paperwork may be lost and personnel may have moved on.
What will HRMC want to know when you make a complaint?
– Name, address, phone number (obviously!)
– Age (so that they know which of the 3 age-based minimum wage rates you are claiming)
– Dates starting internship (and leaving, if claiming minimum wage afterwards)
– Any letter of appointment/ contract/ any other paperwork showing that you have undertaken work with the employer in question
– Details of work completed (to demonstrate that you were a “worker” in legal terms). Key point is to show that employer gave you work to do, and that you would have suffered a “detriment” (eg been worse off in some way) if you had not completed this work in good time and to a good standard. Detriments could range from losing your job to simply getting a bad reference.
– Details of any pay received (how much, how frequently)
– If paid anything at all, details of any deductions (such as for meals, uniforms, transport, accommodation)
– Hours worked
– Any breaks — paid or unpaid?
– Details of any expenses received
Thanks Matt – this is really helpful.
Tanya