COULD JOBLESS GRADS BE FORCED TO SWEEP THE STREETS?
David Cameron announced today that he’s getting tough on anybody who says they can’t find a job – and Graduate Fog has no reason to think he isn’t including jobless graduates in that.
In what we assume was intended as an attack on benefits scroungers, Dave insisted the Conservatives’ plans “will give unemployed people a hand up, not a handout.”
“Unemployed people must be prepared to take up job offers,” he said. “So, with the Conservatives, long-term benefit claimants who fail to find work will be required to ‘work for the dole’ on community work programmes.”
“Anyone on Jobseeker’s Allowance who refuses to join the work programme will lose the right to claim out-of-work benefits until they do.”
It’s worth pointing out that clearly it’s early days with this. I haven’t yet seen information on exactly how these changes would work, what a ‘community work programme’ might be – or whether these reforms could affect graduates struggling to find work. And the Tories aren’t even in power yet.
But I have some nagging concerns already. The biggest one is that we could see job-seeking graduates (doing their best to secure good jobs in a tough market) lumped in with the bone idle.
Having just spent more than £15k on a qualification your government encouraged you to do, it would be pretty outrageous if – on graduating into a market that appears not to value your degree – you were forced to do work along the lines of community service.
Other questions that spring to mind:
– Could job-seeking graduates be forced to take any old job you’re offered, rather than holding out for something that matches your qualifications?
– How many hours of this community work would you be asked to undertake – and would your JSA payment spread over that time be equal to the minimum wage?
– Will a graduate’s community work responsibilities interfere with the time they can spend job-hunting? As we know, applications for graduate roles can be extremely time-consuming to complete.
and
– Isn’t it a better idea to support graduates in their quest to get jobs, rather than threatening to penalize them if they can’t?
Remember that when someone like him says something like that while he isn’t stupid, 1st in PPE from Oxford, in his life connections,especially family connections when he started his political career, OPENED doors for him that are firmly shut in the face of everybody else.His rise has been by no means based just on merit alone. WHAT FOOL CANT ADVANCE WITH THAT IN THEIR FAVOUR! These sort of people are what I call no real lives.
The Labour esablishment with their Millibands/Alexanders who seem to get everything jobwise landed to them on a plate before entering parliament isn’t much better and as for my Clegg with his Kenndyesque pretensions that just has me reaching for the sick bag.
Looks to me, at first glance, that this is about the lazy lot who have been diddling ‘the sick’ for years. However, this is worrying for everyone finding themselves in a situation where they could be lumped in with the benefit swindlers, not just graduates. This could affect those made redundant because of harsh market forces, or those who have been forced to pack in a job because stress and pressure in a recession have sent them round the twist. These are all valid situations at the moment. I am loathe to jump to conclusions without clarification from the Tory Party, but they need to do just that, – clarify – otherwise it could look like decent, hard working, talented people are going to be resigned to the dumper before you can say ‘incapacity benefit’.
Very true – and with the planned public sector cuts (which ever party is elected in May) I fear there could be a lot more people joining the dole queue this summer, from all walks of life. On the up-side, if the Tories get in at least we’ll have some very clean streets.
How is that wrong? Surely one can keep looking for a job while working on community projects. I would much rather the Job Centre provided me with opportunities to spend my idle days contributing to my community than sit on my bum and claim, claim, claim
As for Cameron’s privileged background – it is an unfair world we live in. But working for your community while waiting for the right opportunities to come along can only be a good thing. I am not a Tory, but I do not see why Cameron’s background should be relevant in the debate about social reform.
My point was:Has he ever had to ever really fight for a job he was after? No. Has he tasted the bitter fruit of umpteen rejections for any desired job? No. Has he ever been made reduntant?No. has he had to do a job beneath his qualifications?No.Has he had to worry about repossession?No!
He would also profess to be in favour of meritocracy.No doubt as long as he is one of the one’s merited. Sort out the issuse of underemployment from those of non elitist backgrounds and he can start to be taken more seriously!
Liberal – I actually agree that having a reason to get up and out of the house is a good thing for graduate job-seekers, as long as it leaves you with enough time complete your applications, which are notoriously time-consuming for graduate roles. I’m sure anyone who’s ever spent day after day at home alone will agree that it’s the quickest way to lose your confidence and motivation! However, what concerns me about the Conservatives’ idea is that this community work could be viewed by society as a ‘punishment’ (like community service) for being unemployed – something which I don’t feel is particularly productive. I may be wrong, but something about it smells of wanting to humiliate dole scroungers into getting off their behinds – and I would hate to see unemployed graduates who are doing their best to find work get lumped in with this crowd. But how would they separate you? They could possibly have one rule for graduates and one for non-graduates, that would obviously be awful for a whole load of other reasons! But let’s see how this unfolds. As I say, the Tories may not even get in!
Avarice – I confess I don’t know that much about David Cameron’s personal background, but I agree that it certainly is not a level playing field when it comes to opening doors. However, if it’s any consolation, while I know that ‘Daddy’s contacts’ can help a grad land an unpaid internship, I still think it’s rare for them to score an actual paid job on the grounds of their connections alone. After all, it’s unlikely that grad will be working directly for their dad – and when budgets are so tight, the person they ARE working for will want to make sure they’re getting the best possible value from the cash they’re spending grad’s salary! I also know that one of the things recruiters value most is a strong work ethic. Although I know it can feel like the world is against you if you weren’t born in a castle (!), I do still believe that most employers will always take a hard-working grad without connections over a lazy grad with connections. This is not for altruistic reasons – it’s simply because they want the best possible value from whoever they give that role to!
What happens if a graduate is neuro – diverse and a graduate not to mention non – white ?
Graduates are very competitive, they are few and far between in parts of the UK, they are over – qualified for non – graduate jobs or lack the experience necessary for any employment.
The job centre will understand not having an arm or a leg. Conditions such as dyspraxia, dyslexia, asperger syndrome or a combination result in employment being difficult. The disability employment advisor will largely not help graduates. Schemes are tailored towards London. To participate in schemes such as RBLI. A4E, Remploy, Shaw – Trust the correct benefit which is designed for phyical disabilities. People, employment support and employers do not really understand the impact of those conditions. I know a graduate who cannot apply for a job because he has asperger syndrome.
I think racial discriminations still exists in the UK.
Many gradautes have huge debts and apply themeselves, no politician seems to care.
Tanya.Theres a story about David Cameron(whose incidentally also a distant relative of the royals) when he was starting out in Conservative Politics. There were two candidates for a job in the Conservative Research Department.He was one of them and they got a phone call recomending that they pick him over the other one.Guess who got the job!
That is the basis of Basim and myself’s objection that if we are given that same inital opening we should do well.
If we are NOT given that opening that we thought we were working to achieve the conclusion must be that people who are supposed to know something about neurodiversity dont live on the planet Earth as far as the real world of careers (graduate or otherwise) is concerned.
Avarice – Have you read the Advice page called ‘How to Build your Network’?
I know the system seems unfair, but the reality is still that personal recommendations are enormously valuable when you’re job-hunting. With this in mind, my advice would be to ‘work’ the system, rather than rail against it. Wouldn’t it be great if YOU were the candidate who someone was making that phonecall about, so that they take you over your competitors? I suggest it would be a better use of your time and energies to think about how you can make that happen.
And before you say that networking is only for posh kids, ANYBODY can build their network, from any background, with any experience – yes, from scratch – and yes, even you! ; )
“… we could see job-seeking graduates lumped in with the bone idle”
Non-graduate unemployed are merely “bone idle”? Why not be concerned about jobseekers regardless of educational status being lumped in with the “bone idle”? If graduates claim special exemption they’ll be treated with contempt, and rightly so. It’s forced labour, and genuine jobseekers shouldn’t have to do it, graduates or not.
I’m more alarmed about garbage about claimants being “prepared to take up job offers”. What planet do these people live on? What “job offers”?? This has nothing to do with people turning down offers – that’s clear from the Tories’ talk of “failure” rather than “refusal” to find work. How many of you have turned down a job offer when you’ve been on the dole? Thought not.
As for graduates being entitled to seek appropriate jobs, that right’s already strictly time-limited. If you knew anything about the real world you’d be aware of that. Maybe it’s some graduates who most need a spell shovelling society’s crap.
@Dave – thanks for your comment.
My apologies if my post was not clear and if any offense was caused – but I think you have misinterpreted a number of points in my post.
Firstly, I was absolutely NOT saying that anybody who is not a graduate is, by default, ‘bone idle’. If you are new to Graduate Fog, you may not know that every news story on the blog is examined and assessed from a recent / soon-to-be graduate’s viewpoint. To clarify, I do not want want to see any genuine jobseeker (whether a graduate or not) lumped in with those who do not want to work and are not trying to find work. I fear that the Tories’ policy means there is a risk this could happen.
Secondly, I AM concerned about all jobseekers – particularly the young (as you’ll see from today’s post about Vicky Harrison, who was not a graduate). However, this website was created for those emerging from university and trying to find their way in the world. My users face a different challenge from those coming straight out of school and looking for work. I am not saying that either group has it any easier or harder than the other – but graduate jobseekers are the ones I know best so that is where I have chosen to invest my energy. (Please remember also that I have set up Graduate Fog entirely on my own, and am completely unpaid for my time). I can see how this could seem elitist though, for which I am sorry. And of course, if non-graduates find Graduate Fog helpful, they are more than welcome to come use the site and join in with debate.
Thirdly, I absolutely agree that graduates asking for any kind of ‘special treatment’ among the rest of the nation’s unemployed would be entirely inappropriate – and unlikely to make them any friends! I was merely pointing out that graduates have just made an enormous personal investment in their future on the (fairly reasonable?) assumption that this would lead to a job, whereas non-graduates haven’t. Their Government encouraged them to go to uni, so I question how appropriate it is to punish them for then not being able to get a job. Again, I’m not saying it is any harder or easier for graduates or non-graduates – I’m just speaking directly to my core audience, which is graduates.
Fourthly, your final paragraph. I understand that you (like many others reading this blog) are extremely angry about the current situation. However, I would like to ask that if you comment on this blog again (which you are welcome to do), you refrain from being aggressive towards me or my users. Thanks Dave x
I forgot to mention.There is a good economist called Norman Macrae who is a stauch free marketeer who wrote once that this dosen’t work!
It was tried in Sweden and as the productivity of the “jobs” claimaints were required to do was so low and the bureacracy of administering them so complex the great paradox was it actally was more cost effective to just keep give people benefits for nothing!
So at a time when the public finances are being stretched it is also economically stupid!
There is a far more cost effective way potentially to mop up unemployment and that should come naturally to even the wetest Tory: a rapid expansion of the private sector!
Every pound spent on labour and capital in the private sector has been proved to go further than it does in the public sector.
But to do that there would have to be a bonfire of unnecessary regulations for employers to offset their costs and wage bills (for profitability) and greater incentivisation through cut off points before people come of benefits and and have something like the first £10,000 or more exempt from any tax!
It was even once suggested that the welfare bill should be actually slashed to cut employers costs and force the private sector to give a job to everyone whatever their intelligence and skills.
Totally agree with Camerons policy as there’s too many people in society who are just content with picking up their paycheck. In the current economic turn down, I don’t see any reason why graduates shouldn’t do community service programs as it will gain them experience in the workplace and will be some extra to add to their CV’S. With reguards to an already tough labour market. This is what graduates find very difficult, employers are looking for people with good level experience in their choosen field and graduates having left University don’t possess this which puts a large burden on them when it comes to apply for jobs and getting interviews. In Todays market, Degrees are pretty much devalued, they simply don’t make the candidate stand out in an already competitive job market. Hence why there’s loads of graduates joining the dole que. Employers in todays market prefer vocational qualifications over academic qualifications and exam results.
There has not been any research linking the two, but some children with dyspraxia may have some difficulties as well in this area.
The person who wrote the original page needs to smell what they are shovelling. The Tory attack is not on the bone idle, it is on any law abiding person who finds themselves unemployed for any reason.
The major reason for being unemployed is lack of jobs.
Having convinced lamebrains like yourself that it is a scourge on scroungers you were all for it. The truth is it is an attempt to withdraw the benefits system and destroy the welfare state.
As for your great brains being too proud to clean streets or empty bins if you were half smart you would already be working or self employed plus if truth be told most degrees are not worth a shit or you would be getting head hunted by employers.
Tory policy is to take away the rights of the working man to be paid while sick or unemployed – any working man.
Ask the jobcentre what they think of your degree and they will tell you if it has not got you employment then it is worthless to you and you have to consider yourself as a general worker, sweeping, cleaning, lifting, carrying etc.
Get ready for retail; Asda, Tesco etc.
You my friend are the ‘bone idle’, people who think the country owes them a living just because they managed to get a stupid degree.
Get off your high horse and put your general workers apron on.
I do not disagree, in principle, with people who are long-term unemployed being encouraged to do work experience or volunteering if it’s suitable for them. Depending on what they end up doing, it may be a very valuable thing. But here’s my problem with this: the underlying assumption that people who are unemployed have not ‘earned’ their benefits if they’re not doing something that looks like work. This is a hugely simplistic way of seeing things, and it comes from that very conservative, Thatcherite view of the world, that people who have never worked are effectively useless to society. And, perhaps even more unfair, that they probably want to stay that way.
Whether you are a graduate or not, being unemployed doesn’t mean you haven’t earned your benefits. I earn it by looking for work. Isn’t that the definition of JSA? With, I might add, little to no support from the job center. Jobseeking in this market is hard work. Facing rejection is mentally and spiritually draining. Work experience was helpful for me, but it definitely meant I couldn’t apply for as many jobs, because I didn’t have the time. So in order for it to be worth it, it had to significantly impact my potential to get a job.
That’s not going to be the case for everyone, so why lump everyone into a category. This is not about getting people into work or increasing their self-esteem. There are plenty of ways they could do that. Like maybe some decent career advice from the job centre. Maybe easier access to work experience opportunities that fit the client in question. Maybe some kind of emotional support, workshops for those with low self-esteem. They just want to shame and punish people who are getting benefits, because fewer people will claim them, and it will save them money. That’s all they care about.
Look at the language used. People who have “failed” to find work. That’s how I’m made to feel. Like a failure. And I think most long-term unemployed people feel that way already without this kind of attitude. So what truly concerns me is not their proposals, although I agree with the potential issues brought up by the original post, but the way they talk about jobseekers, the way that the media reports on these issues. It makes me deeply angry. And all the while they’re taking away support for young people, increasing tuition fees, talking about exams being too easy, removing things like Sure Start centers which prevent exactly this kind of situation. It’s infuriating to the point where I start to make sense of how the people who took part in the riots felt.
If you’re already being treated like a criminal, or at least a deviant, why not be one? This sense of looking down on young people, especially disadvantaged young people, has got to stop, because it’s going to drive people to think that they might as well not bother. Perhaps even worse, the kind of capitalism that the government wants us to buy into only encourages people to think purely in terms of capital, possessions and quick fixes. No wonder people are spoiled. No wonder they expect life to be easy, when that’s the lifestyle you’re telling them they can have, if they only buy your latest iPod.
Sorry this turned into rant. But I think I have a point in there somewhere.
@Sarah
as of this week there is 2.53 million offically unemployed people, and the last time i looked at how many jobs out there was about 450,000 to 500,000 (full time, part time, temp and contract) do the maths?
There will never be a full employment in the UK and Cameron and his numpties will need to get this into there heads and stop banging on about docking people’s dole because they are not trying hard enough there just isn’t enough jobs out there.
Sarah and Matthew: I couldn’t agree more. It’s easier to blame the unemployed than introduce policies to create new jobs. The sad thing is most people believe the crap the government and papers give them about unemployed people being lazy and not trying-when in reality many are desperate for a job and have already had their self-esteem and confidence crushed by endless rejections. Crushing it further won’t help them secure a job!
@Caitlyn
No policies will bring back full employment, China can manfacture things cheapear than use so, the factories that already make our things in China will not be coming back to the UK
I agree full employment is impossible, however I do think the correct policies could reduce unemployment. China won’t be able to keep their prices low forever, already factory workers are demanding higher wages as there are so many employers to choose from. Banning all these unpaid internships would help as if people were being paid a wage they would be able to buy products and services which would help get the economy going.
I believe graduates in this day and age need to stop living in fantasy and start living in the real world, long gone are the days when a paper qualification such as a Diploma or Degree guaranteed you you’re dream job.
Having interviewed a few employers who run business’s in IT, we discussed whether a degree would give you the green light when applying for jobs within their company. Their words were that “graduates come to us thinking their going to be earning a big salary when coming here, but they only earn around £250 per week”
They also mentioned that they don’t value degree’s and would much prefer to train you on the job.
In todays labour market, qualifications like a diploma or Degree can actually make you unemployable just like a criminal record.
Job Centre Plus stuff are frequently informing graduates to leave our their degrees on their CV as it can act as a barrier into employment.
The community programs are a great way to gain experience and I believe graduates, people with disabilities and the long term unemployed would benefit from them.
Todays labour market is tough with as many as up to 70 applications for each position.
Graduates and non graduates would benefit from the experience on Work Programs as it has been proven to lead unemployed people into paid employment.
Allan Murray you are talking rubbish. Prefer to train people on the job? Where are these employers offering training? Work program has lead to paid employment? Not for the majority of participants it hasn’t: 3.5% You think that’s a good result?! What job have you secured with such ill informed views and awful grammar (degrees is plural, you don’t use apostrophes for plural words!)