TESCO, SAINBSURY’S, MORRISONS, SUPERDRUG, WEIGHT WATCHERS, SELFRIDGES AND URBAN OUTFITTERS IN THE DOCK
Graduate Fog has learned that the seven big brands caught advertising for unpaid internships could face official questioning – and even criminal charges.
The grilling is also likely to also involve the contract publishers Cedar, Seven Squared, River and Result, who placed the advertisements on behalf of Tesco, Sainsbury’s, Superdrug, Weight Watchers and Morrisons for interns to work on the brands’ customer magazines.
This weekend’s report by the IPPR and Graduate Fog’s friends Internocracy confirmed that all these internships are likely to be unlawful, stating:
“Private companies will normally be under a legal obligation to treat people employed on internship programmes as workers and to pay them the appropriate minimum wage.”
“Employers often mistakenly believe there is a ‘grey area’ around internships in the National Minimum Wage legislation that allows them to take on unpaid interns as long as both sides understand it is a voluntary position — this is simply not the case.
“The law is, in fact, very clear and the problem is a failure of enforcement.”
However, the inquiry may not happen.
It all depends on you.
Why?
Because we have a tough decision to make – and I’m not going to do it alone.
It’s like this.
The good folks at the Pay and Work Rights Helpline have told me that they will investigate any credible ‘intelligence’ about companies which could be undermining the minimum wage laws.
The informant doesn’t have to be the intern themselves.
It could be me.
All I need to do is submit the screen shots of the advertisements.
But there’s a ‘but’.
They can’t guarantee what will happen next.
The information will be handed over to the tax men at HMRC, who will conduct a full investigation – including contacting the companies concerned to see what they have to say for themselves.
I have no problem getting on the wrong side of these companies (I sense I may already have my grinning face pinned to a dartboard at Sainsbury’s HQ!).
However, I want to make sure we have thought this through before we go any further – and that I have the backing of the Graduate Fog tribe before I take action against these companies.
As I see it, there are several possible outcomes to taking this further and making our complaint official – and not all are 100% good:
1) The companies get a scare and decide to start paying their interns, keeping on those they have already hired. (*Best result)
2) The companies get a scare and terminate all seven internships (if indeed they have gone ahead – remember we only have ads recruiting for these roles). These are not replaced with paid roles.
3) The companies get a scare and terminate all unpaid internships in their entire company. These are not replaced with paid internships. (*Worst result)
See? This is quite a conundrum:
Do we press ahead and submit our evidence, show these companies that we mean business – but risk these internships being terminated altogether?
Or do we search for another, more diplomatic approach in the hope that we can maximise the chances of maintaining these internships in some form, for future graduates to benefit from? (Any ideas?!)
Sometimes, I find myself leaning towards throwing the book at these companies.
And – given my previous dealings with these companies – I’m losing faith that a diplomatic approach is even option.
Like on Monday when I received this email from Urban Outfitters, who you’ll remember we caught advertising for a NINE MONTH unpaid internship at their head office.
It read:
‘No comment Tanya’
That made me MAD.
I have also just read through the responses from all the other brands, which were – in my opinion – uniformly arrogant and dismissive towards our entirely legitimate complaints:
TESCO
“I worked for many years as a journalist and work experience/internships are an invaluable way of gaining experience in an industry that is very difficult to get a foothold in. I personally worked on this basis for two national newspapers and was extremely grateful for the opportunity.”SAINSBURY’S
“This [internship] is [at] Sainsbury’s Magazine. They are separate from us. They are completely a separate commercial entity. I’m going to drop you an email but we’d be grateful if you could change those tweets because they are simply not correct. They are factually incorrect.” Referred me to the PA to the magazine’s Editor.MORRISONS
“We believe the role was offered by our publishing company with the best intention of providing a valuable work experience opportunity.”WEIGHT WATCHERS
“As you know already Weight Watchers magazine is run by River Publishing, therefore they will be coming back to you with a response in due course as it is an issue relating to them directly that you are questioning.”SUPERDRUG
“We work with a number of agencies who may have people on work experience in their office working on their projects. We have asked them to clarify the status of all such individuals.” I have heard nothing since.SELFRIDGES
I have chased this several times but I am still awaiting a response.URBAN OUTFITTERS
“No comment Tanya.”
When I read these outrageous messages, I think the time has come to take a stand against companies who think it is reasonable to ask young people to work for nothing – when every other employee receives a salary.
However, the idea that my actions could terminate a young person’s internship makes me really uncomfortable.
If a Graduate Fogger is struggling to find paid work, I always advise you to take volunteer work or unpaid work if you can – because doing something is better than nothing. Not just for your CV, but also for your confidence and motivation. I really believe this to be good advice.
Then again, I also believe that the unpaid internships culture is corrosive. We have already seen that it not only exploits those who take these placements (many of whom can only just afford to do them – we know that not all unpaid interns are princesses). It also excludes those who can’t afford to do them.
What’s more, it seems that this trend is spreading into new industries every day. Something needs to be done.
So here we have a clear case of doing the best thing for the common good – versus the individual.
My hope is that if unpaid internships are stopped, the companies who run them will have to start taking the same people on – but with pay.
We know that unpaid interns are doing proper, necessary, valuable work at the moment – so surely these companies won’t be able to do without you altogether?
However, it may not be this straightforward. For example, if employers have to start paying interns, they may only take on half the number. What happens to the other half?
Urgh – my brain hurts.
What do you think?
*Whose side are you on?
Should the greater good come before the individual?
IF YOU’VE NEVER COMMENTED BEFORE ON GRADUATE FOG – PLEASE DO SO TODAY!
If I don’t hear from enough of you, I won’t submit our evidence. Thanks – x
Just a quick comment today to get the ball rolling. 😉 As I’m sure you can guess, I’m very much in favour of working towards the greater good and so think you should definitely go ahead with holding these companies accountable for their completely unacceptable behaviour. You said it best yourself:
“I also believe that the unpaid internships culture is corrosive. We have already seen that it not only exploits those who take these placements (many of whom can only just afford to do them — we know that not all unpaid interns are princesses) — it also excludes those who can’t afford to do them.
What’s more, it seems that this trend is spreading into new industries every day. Something needs to be done.”
@Christopher
Thanks for sharing your views. I know when you look at the numbers, it’s a no-brainer… But the idea of some poor grad’s longed-for internship being snatched away from them is killing me – even if it is for the greater good! Oh dear, am I going soft?! : (
I really object to the way people use the “Well it was tough for me, so it ought be tough for them too” excuse. That is like the logic of saying “Well, I was abused as a child, which should allow me to abuse other children”.
I think the defensiveness you see just shows that nothing will change, unless more people like you are willing to stand up and make it in their interest to change.
As for what would happen if all internships were banned? Those companies still need people and would probably go back to doing what they traditionally did- pay for their training and give them a salary while doing so.
I say do it Tanya. You might in the short term harm a few grads. But you might in the long term benefit many, many more if companies wise up to the fact that what they are doing is ILLEGAL and they will be punished for it.
The work laws are there for a reason!
This whole topic is a brain ache. Since reading the reports last week I’ve been reflecting on my own work experience – paid and unpaid.
My first take on this was that big companies should be ashamed of themselves for using free labour, particularly given the impact that many graduates and undergraduates have in the workplace even on short placements. The bleats they’ve sent you just reinforce this!
Then I recalled my first bit of work experience when I was largely a drain on resources and just absorbed what was going on around me – realistically if I had been expected to be paid I would have never had that opportunity. It was a great start to the world of work and it helped me make a lot of subsequent career decisions.
As a scientist (now lapsed) I later had an internship that was well paid, but my sister (arts administration) worked for a long time without a salary in order to break into a hugely competitive field. She was subsidised by my parents (who were utterly amazed that someone with a degree could work FOR NOTHING). Her experiences disgusted me at the time and it continues to trouble me that this practice counts against really able people who can’t afford to pursue careers for which they are well suited.
Legislation is a very blunt tool though and my personal experiences show the “shades of grey”. Perhaps a time limit on length of unpaid work would help – up to a fortnight? In that time someone could take in the culture and roles in an organisation but would be unlikely to make much contribution. From that point on, surely the employer begins to benefit and should expect to reward the contribution made.
Sara, I think having a time limit is a fairly good idea but on the other hand what’s to stop employers ‘hiring’ interns for two weeks and then either getting other people in for two weeks to do the tea-making, or alternating two interns or something like that? You see this happening in countries where certain labour laws kick in for people on temporary contracts after a set period of time, say 2 years. After that, the temps gain the benefits and security of those on permanent contracts. Sounds like a good idea in principle but what actually happens is that companies fire their temps a week before the 2 years are up, wait a week or so and then re-hire them. The person I worked for on my gap year used to ONLY hire gap-year students because they’re less demanding and leave at the end of the year rather than stay and make requests for anything e.g. maternity leave! At least I was paid though.
I believe the way it works now (Tanya or someone else correct me if I’m wrong) is that if you are only observing you need not be paid. But if you are doing any actual work, from sorting the mail to writing articles or whatever, you should be paid. That seems about right to me, if a bit restrictive, because it makes the point that those who do work should be paid. If people need a week or so of unpaid “observation” before they can start doing actual work and getting paid for it, so be it. In most jobs you will be PAID for your training anyway so it’s no excuse for a company to say “interns don’t make much of a contribution in their first week, so we shouldn’t pay them” because why shouldn’t the company pay a bit towards training you for the job?
Remember when the National Minimum Wage came in? All those employers and employer associations saying how much damage it would do to the chances of low paid workers and school leavers finding work?
You won’t remember when Equal Pay legislation came in; however, there were the same bleats then. Nobody would hire a woman, would they, if they had to pay her just as much as him????
I think this is an excellent point! I strongly believe that unpaid internships have become a sneaky way for employers to duck their responsibilites for training their young staff for the job.
Employers used to factor in training costs when hiring graduates. They knew you were bright and had potential but where a bit ‘green’ when it came to the working environment etc.
But now it’s up to YOU to train yourselves, on your own time and for no money.
Sneaky!
@Tanya
I do understand your concern but as other users have already mentioned, internships are effectively a form of training and training should be paid, the idea being that the company trains you and educates you about their industry (and pays you for this) and that you are then equipped with the necessary practical know-how (in addition to the academic knowledge gained from your university studies) in order to carry out the job. It seems that for many companies the temptation is too great with unpaid “internships”, especially during tough economic times, to just avail of the free labour for as long as possible, using one graduate for six months free labour and then moving on to another without ever intending to employ said graduates long-term, in paid roles. And this needs to stop! Either the internship should be unpaid (and without any commitment to employ the graduate at the end of it) and last for one to two weeks MAX with the aim of giving the graduate an insight into the industry and the company (i.e. solely observation and NOT undertaking any tasks or duties which are normally carried out by paid staff) OR it should be called “paid training” which can last for as long as both sides agree to and at the end of which a permanent position may or may not be offered to the graduate. The benefits of this would be that the graduate has been trained and paid, the company has benefitted from a trained and educated, albeit junior member of staff and is not doing anything illegal. It is a win-win situation, particularly should the company decide to keep the graduate on after the training finishes(which would surely happen more often than it does now after graduates complete “internships”). To cut a long story short, the law needs to be enforced so that graduates get a fairer deal and at the very least emerge from an internship having been able to financially support themselves for its duration and having gained useful training and experience which will allow them to move more easily into a paid position in the future.
May I point your readers to a place where something can be done about this Tanya?
The Low Pay Commission publishes a report every year on the operation of the National Minimum Wage and suggests a level for it every year. This year they have chosen the subject of internships as a focus of interest and are inviting people with something to say on the subject to write in to them with their views.
As they say on the site (edited):
We have been asked to review the labour market position of young people, including those in apprenticeships and internships. We would be grateful for your evidence on these issues, particularly with respect to the following questions.
– How are the employment prospects of young people developing in the current labour market?
– Have the adverse effects of the recession been different for young people?
– What has been the labour market experience of young people with respect to apprenticeships and work experience opportunities, including internships?
– What has been the impact of the minimum wage on young people since its introduction?
Now is the chance to make a real difference – if you have a view on internships and whether they should be paid, let the Commission know. Email any thoughts, evidence, personal experiences etc to the Commission via Katy Cornish:
catherine.cornish@lowpay.gov.uk
This is a rare chance to speak directly to those in influence – I suggest people take it!
Tanya, we seem to be returning to an age in which companies believe they can do what they like with people’s lives regardless of how it affects them. It’s time to show these people that they can’t just walk all over us and treat us like slaves, especially not because of the fact that we are graduates. We went to university to acquire an advantage over those who don’t have degrees, to secure well paid jobs, to secure a decent level of respect from our fellow citizens instead of being treated like dogs (because we’ve damn well earned that respect if nothing else) and to have some hope of a decent career prospect in the years to come. No self-respecting graduate should accept an unpaid internship. It’s like Spartacus handing a whip over to a nearby centurion and saying “come on Roman flay me like you mean it”, you damn well know that those companies are going to treat you like dirt, or you should do if you have any sense. Enough is enough, we’ve had two years of graduates (and others besides) being treated like appallingly, so now is the time to stand up and fight. Go right ahead is my recommendation.
If unpaid internships are not stopped there could be a situation where graduates spend years doing unpaid internships. People who go to college to do qualifications instead of degrees are not expected to work unpaid, it is only graduates who are treated badly and expected to work for long periods of time unpaid. Graduates need to be working in a paid job so they can pay their rent and bills and save money for their future.
Absolutely, quite agree. It is getting to the stage now whereby graduates are worse off than everyone else, when actually we are supposed to be better than everybody else. And I’ve no shame about being seen as ‘elitist’, if others want to complain let them go to uni and earn a degree….
I am currently doing an unpaid internship in one of the companies you mentioned above. It is supposed to be unpaid for 3 months however i’m not sure i can afford to stay that long. It is also killing my passion and drive for the industry and i’m normally a very hard working person! I have been doing the exact same job each and every day for close to 4 weeks now, i get spoken to as though i’m actually getting paid (spoken to in a negative way) and it seems no one is bothered by the fact i am running myself into the ground from 9-5.30 (whilst often staying late) to get the job done. Therefore, not having the energy to apply for jobs when i get home at half 7/8. Can i also add that i have taken up a part time job so will be working for 6 days a week if i continue this internship.
The worst thing is that i actually get on with a little of the people who work in the company i’m talking about, i know it’s not their fault and i don’t want to seem ungrateful but i just feel totally overlooked.
@Emma
Thanks for this – I’m sure a lot of people reading know just how you feel! Your comments illustrate perfectly why unpaid internships aren’t just bad for you, they’re bad for business.
Do we really want to beat the love out of our young people, before you’ve even started your career? Is this the way to build British business for the future?
We need to invest in our young – not beat the hell out of you. Getting a job shouldn’t be an endurance test, with roles awarded to whoever is still standing after a year (more?) of being treated like a slave. Are the ‘survivors’ of this test really going to be in any shape to become the leaders of tomorrow? I doubt it…
@Emma
So do you think I should report these companies?
Tanya,
On the one hand i’m not keen to get on the wrong side of the people i want to work for (it’s a very small industry after all) but at the same time it’s frustrating be shown no consideration. The building i work in has overly plush offices. Yesterday they celebrated someone’s birthday with bottles of champagne, they are nowhere near short of money and as an intern, it’s slightly insulting to come face to face with this sort of ridiculous luxury day after day.
I have a degree and an MA and i’m also 24. I feel as though i’ve done my fair share of free labour and it should be paying off by now. Except it isn’t. I don’t even feel i’m getting involved enough when i’m on an internship to be able to make use of the ‘experience’ when i apply for a paid job. So other than doing it for the name on your CV, there really is no point.
So, yes, i am all for reporting these companies. Furthermore, i think it’s extremely unfair that we are expected to question the actions of the industry we want to work in as that won’t endear us to anyone, without a doubt it should be the government’s responsibility.
Most definitely.
So it seems that we have a lot of agreement here – but I’m still feeling nervous about this. What if it back-fires? 14 comments isn’t that many… Are we 100% sure it’s the right move for me to report these companies?
I completely agree with Emma. These companies (the vast majority of them) can well afford to pay interns (many of whom have huge amounts of debt!) the minimum wage *at the very least*! Not doing so is insulting, degrading, selfish and exploitative. You would think that the whole credit crunch/economic recession would have taught large corporations a thing or two about excess, fairness and equality… unfortunately that’s not the case and we need to challenge those using graduates as slaves before anything will change. The only way they will pay any attention is if their own interests are threatened. And legal action will do just that! I understand your reluctance but everybody who has commented seems to feel very strongly about the issue. You have tried diplomacy and it hasn’t worked. These companies are clearly not interesting in negotiating ethics- their only interest is themselves! This needs to change.
Have you contacted Interns Anonymous about this for their take on it Tanya? Also, what are you worried about exactly? Surely this can only be a good thing?
The internship situation has gone way too far. Its really bad the way these companies take on a series of interns rather than hiring an admin assistant. Its ridiculous how many graduates are stuck in cycles of expensive internships that never lead to paid jobs.
An interesting article on unpaid graduate interns in the US-
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/magazine/2010/0724/1224275313645.html
Seems that this problem is international! To be honest, we probably adopted the practice from the Americans. As the article alludes to, unpaid internships are much less common in continental Europe. Perhaps we should be following the better example set by our neighbours rather than constantly trying to emulate the US. Just a thought.
@All
Good news folks – our hard work and discussion has finally been picked up by the mainstream press! Thanks Media Digest!
http://mediadigest.co.uk/features/illegal-or-not-will-interns-always-miss-out
PS “Straight-talking de Grunwald”? I like! : )
I agree with pretty much all of the posts here – employers, especially companies such as those mentioned above who can afford to pay interns, should be held accountable so I say Tanya should go for it.
Another issue that goes beyond the simple fact of it being unfair that you essentially do an entry-level job for no pay (and the fact that it excludes most people or makes them work ridiculous hours to be able to afford it) is that it takes away these paid entry-level jobs. In the non-profit sector for instance, a number of unpaid internship ads essentially describe entry-level admin or assistant positions, often requiring that you work for free for up to six months full-time and that you have some previous experience and/or a master’s degree. I rarely if ever see these same organizations recruiting for paid entry-level positions. Where there are supposedly entry-level jobs, there seems to be an unspoken requirement that you already have a few years of relevant experience. I feel like unpaid internships have just gotten out of hand and something has to be done about it.
One thing that irritates me to no end is when people claim that internships are ‘voluntary’ or a way to get a ‘leg up’ in the industry and an opportunty for ambitious people to get ahead. In many cases there simply isn’t another way into the industry apart from to do unpaid internships for months on end, and even then most of the time they don’t seem to lead to paid employment, just to another unpaid job. As the Irish Times article mentions, you either drop out of the race or do the internships, which don’t really give you an advantage over anyone because everyone else has done them too. The scale and nature of this whole internships thing has changed.
I think unpaid internships are contributing to a situation where graduates are worse of than people who never went to university. Friends who went to college to do an NVQ/ work instead of going to university were never expected to or even considered working unpaid.
I agree, legal action is necessary.
Working for free is turning into a requirement for any job. When you’re looking at entry-level jobs, asking for money is an awkward conversation that makes you feel like you’re being greedy. This is ridiculous, why should I feel money-grabbing because i need to live off something!
@Jo
I totally agree – this situation is crazy! It is completely unreasonable that employers make you feel this way…!
Tanya
I’m in full agreement with you and have just blogged about this myself –
http://www.amazingpeople.co.uk/blog/index.php/2010/08/17/interns-should-you-work-for-free/
Will be discussing this subject with HR senior managers I meet.
@Denise Taylor
Thanks!
I hope that these companies are reported and disciplined. This is a complete abuse of the idea of shadowing and placements as part of education. A month or so, maybe. Part-time hours weekly whilst studying at uni, fine. But now after accumulating debt and working hard, people like Emma with MA degrees are supposed to work harder and for FREE? At the very least, there should be a legally binding guarantee of paid employment and benefits to anyone who puts the time in for the company. I see nothing tangible being offered from these companies besides a line or two on a CV, however.
Take these bastards down. This exploitation has to stop!