GRADUATE FOG ON THE LYN BROWN SCANDAL – LIVING WAGE CAMPAIGNER RECRUITS UNPAID INTERN
An MP who has supported the call for all workers to earn the ‘living wage’ (£8.30 an hour in London, £7.20 outside the capital) has been found advertising for an unpaid intern – or “volunteer worker” to work in her Westminster office.
Lyn Brown – a Labour MP whose website claims she has “campaigned tirelessly for a living wage for all” – is seeking a “voluntary Westminster worker”. This person’s duties will include “policy research” as well as “answering the phone, dealing with constituent enquiries and provision of additional clerical support.” A Westminster source has told the BBC that this person will take the place of a full-time, salaried worker who is leaving.
The advert states that hours are “flexible” but there is no time limit placed on the post and no lunch or food expenses are offered.
Gus Baker, co-founder of Intern Aware, told the BBC he was seriously unimpressed, accusing Brown of a “double hypocrisy”:
“It’s absolutely unacceptable for MPs to replace full time, salaried workers with unpaid staff. That’s the top and bottom line. But that Lyn Brown campaigns for the living wage – and has campaigned for the minimum wage in the past – makes this a double hypocrisy. What I want to ask her is – how would someone in her constituency from a low income background be able to take up that opportunity? The answer is they couldn’t, so how can she possibly justify that? It is manifestly unfair.”
Graduate Fog is equally unimpressed – but I am also glad that the issue of the London Living Wage has been raised in relation to interns. (I suspect this post is likely to be taken by a recent graduate eager to gain experience, don’t you think?) At the risk of sounding like a snob (I’ve already attacked charities this week, so what the hell), it’s something that’s been bothering me for a while.
Why is it that most nice, liberal people seem to agree that cleaners and street-sweepers deserve £7.20/£8.30 an hour – but dismiss educated, qualified graduate interns who complain that they are earning zero for performing skilled work?
Just to be clear, I am in total support of the living wage for all – £5.93 an hour does not go far in the UK, where the cost of living is soaring. And certainly not in the capital, which is now one of the world’s most expensive cities.
But I fail to understand why this good sense is not being applied to interns, most of whom have shelled out tens of thousands of pounds on their education, understanding that their degree would be their passport to a job paying well over the NMW. I’m just going to say it: don’t most young people go to university so that they can earn more than a cleaner?
Instead, we have a situation where most graduate interns are so accustomed to earning nothing at all for their labour that if/when their employer eventually offers them the NMW, that sounds like a healthy salary (which I thought we’d just agreed it wasn’t, especially in London?). So to most interns, earning the living wage of £7.20 / £8.30 an hour will sound like a king’s ransom.
Don’t know much about the living wage? I didn’t either. So I’ve done some research. The Living Wage Campaign was set up by London Citizens in 2001. Their website says:
The Living Wage Campaign calls for every worker in the country to earn enough to provide their family with the essentials of life. Launched by London Citizens in 2001, the campaign has won over £70 million of Living Wages, lifting over 10,000 families out of working poverty.
The Living Wage is a number. An hourly rate, set independently, every year (by the GLA in London). It is calculated according to cost of living and gives the minimum pay rate required for a worker to provide their family with the essentials of life.
Sounds like a good idea? That’s because it is. Which is why over 100 employers have signed up to the scheme – including KPMG, Barclays, PwC, London Underground, University College London, the Royal College of Music, the Olympic Delivery Authority, the Greater London Authority and law firms Freshfields and Allen and Overy.
Now the pressure is on high street retailers to follow. Last week a “flash mop” of 150 Tesco employees flooded a west London store as part of a month-long campaign to coax the supermarket into increasing its cleaners’ wages (currently at least £6 an hour) to the London living wage.
Clearly, this is all good stuff. At Graduate Fog we whole heartedly support a campaign which recognises the significant cost of living at the moment. But can anyone explain to me why it isn’t ok that cleaners get £6 per hour but it is ok that graduates get paid nothing?
Yet again, it seems that the rights and needs of interns – who are often ‘lucky’ to even receive the NMW – are being sidelined by our government and employers, as if they don’t exist. The Mayor of London Boris Johnson, who backs the living wage campaign, ignored them completely when he said:
“The capital relies on the work of many who carry out the city’s essential functions on a daily basis — from office cleaners to care workers in social services. It is right that their skills and commitment to London’s success are recognised, and one of the most fundamental ways of doing this is to ensure that all Londoners are paid properly.”
Did you hear any mention of interns in there? Me neither. From what I can see, interns are keeping many London companies afloat – so doesn’t the London Mayor think their skills and commitment should be “recognised”? And shouldn’t these workers be “paid properly” too?
See the ad for yourself here
Link dead? Here are the screengrabs:
*Do interns deserve the living wage?
Would you be happy earning £7.20 / £8.30 an hour for your work? Are you confused about why interns’ rights to a fair wage are continually ignored, when the rights of other low-paid workers are championed?
I think it may be because internships are widely purported to be something that only super privileged grads undertake (= not a deserving cause). My sympathy goes to foggers who haven’t been able to find one where they live, but in London, and in the world of charity, as Tanya has noted, they are insidiously rife because they are a plentiful supply of free labour.
Also the perception among the public (or at least those aware of internships) is that after internship = job. This wasn’t my experience! Nor for any single other person I know. Therefore if people tend to think that after the internship automatically comes a job for the grad, it may not be seen as a big deal for a grad to have to work for nothing for a while by such people. The same people are always saying how useless we are anyway. At least a cleaner has skill and experience – and hey – they will probably be hardworking..
It is widely thought that all students do at uni is doss around getting stoned and drunk. Perhaps they think we deserve to work for nothing (?) because the myth pertains that we are lazy and can’t read and are therefore useless.
You are right Tanya: I went to uni so I didn’t have to be a cleaner like most of the women in my wider family are/were.
“I’m just going to say it: don’t most young people go to university so that they can earn more than a cleaner?”
The privilidge and sense of entitlement which seems to eminate from you Tanya is astonishing.
What about learning for learnings sake?
Also, look at the USA, there internships are normal and accepted and it is now the same here. Why are you fighting a) a losing battle? b) a wrong battle?
Focus on the cost of education, not a 2 month unpaid internship! Thats small fry
To Astonished, learning for learnings sake might sound nice to you but is no good if that means that graduates are doing unpaid internships, can’t pay their rent and are living on the streets. Not everyone has rich parents and graduates have rent and bills to pay so they need to be earning money that pays for this. Many universities have told their graduates/ mislead them into believing that a degree would lead to a well paid job so graduates have expected more from their degree.
Many universities have told their graduates/ mislead them into believing that a degree would lead to a well paid job so graduates have expected more from their degree.
1. What planet are graduates on when day after day we see there aren’t enough jobs available?
2. What planet are graduates on when they believe a degree will lead to a well paid job when all it does is help get the interview – its not the degree that ‘gains’ the job, its the individual.
3. What planet are graduates on when they seemingly fail to make reasonable assumptions and judgments. ie. the fact that there aren’t enough jobs around is widely publicised and the fact that a degree leads to an interview, not a job.
Graduates or unquestioning automatons?
Derrick, I would love to see you try to get a job in this financial climate.
I graduated in 2009 just at the start of this “crisis” and so for the previous years before where I saw all my friends go in to well paid graduate jobs. Therefore, one would assume when I started uni that a good job was in the offing. I do happen to have a job by the way. Just not where i thought i would be and a LOT less money than what I should be paid for someone of my experience.
The fact is noone can work for nothing if you need to pay rent, food, travel, work clothing. Some parents can simply not afford to pay for their children to go to an unpaid internship.
Unpaid internships were only around in Journalism, Fashion and TV until the last couple of years, where a trend has grown to replace entry level jobs for unpaid internships. This is simply unbelievable, when the top exec’s are getting paid hundreds of thousands of pounds to not actually do that much. If they shaved off even a small percentage of the top’s wages they could take on lots of entry level employees.
The fact is that jobs could be created, businesses are just choosing not to as they can save money. People looking to get their foot on the ladder will not complain too much and will be thankful for the experience. Stupid train of thought. You lose a lot of candidates who will learn quickly and have a lot of potential.
Jamie B,
I work in graduate recruitment. This is my world. I too deplore unpaid internships.
@astonished
I really don’t think your comments about my ‘privilege’ and ‘sense of entitlement are fair’. I know that this is a thorny issue but we need to discuss it openly and honestly. If hundreds of thousands of young people are being ‘sold’ the promise that a university education will lead to a ‘good’ job – and then they come out and find themselves earning less than a cleaner, I think that’s a subject Graduate Fog should be reporting on.
@graduate27
I agree – and it’s getting rarer to find young people who go to university just for ‘learning for learning’s sake.’ People go to university because they think it will lead to better jobs, better-paid jobs and a better future than if they don’t.
@derrick
As ever, I welcome your comments – even if I do think they’re a little harsh! I think we shouldn’t forget that when (most) people decide to go to university, they are only 17. They aren’t old enough to vote – but apparently we think they are old enough to make this massive decision about this huge amount of money based on pretty little information – and some dodgy advice from people who have their own agenda. Schools encourage pupils to go to uni because it looks good on their league tables. Even parents have their own reasons for urging their kids to go – they believe it will lead to a better life. And everyone forgets that university prospectuses are sales brochures, they are ‘selling’ the courses. And politicians don’t even give accurate advice – just see how David Willetts has been doling out this ancient stat about how graduates earn £100,000 more in a lifetime than non-grads. Sorry, but if that was ever true, I seriously doubt it is now!
Given all these circumstances, I’m not surprised young people are making some seriously iffy decisions…
@Jamie B
As I said, I really don’t think that making this assumption was that crazy… Given that that’s what everybody leads young people to believe. In fact, we’re STILL doing it! Every time I read about the number of students who have ‘missed out’ on university places, I wince…
@ Tanya,
Thanks. Perhaps you’d be better off starting a website that educates youngsters? Unidecisions.com?
Seems to me that your current proposition is somewhat after the fact.
I’m being serious. It would have a more direct, positive and influential impact. You have lots of evidence (including plenty of statistics and surveys) that the world isn’t as they are ‘lead to believe’, it would be most altruistic and beneficial to adopt this strategy.
@Derrick
I agree that would be a useful website – that’s a really good idea! Unfortunately I’m pretty much committed to Graduate Fog for the time being… And running one website full-time, unpaid is quite enough for me ; )
I actually agreed with the cries of snobbishness. I think it’s quiet a big assumption that cleaners etc are ‘unskilled’ and demeaning. It’s these types of workers that keep bigger pictures upright. Just a little fyi. I worked in the catering dept of a school for a year to afford to do some internships. Responsibilities included cleaning and maintenance assurance. I saw first-hand that without the behind-the-scenes staff, on lower pay and lower rungs than all the teachers etc, so many things would grind to a halt. The guy who makes sure the floor isn’t a health hazard is arguably just as important than the person in the suit walking on it.
@RedHeadFashionista
Thanks for your comment – but I’m not saying cleaners should get paid less than interns. I’m saying that interns shouldn’t get paid less than cleaners!
It just strikes me as odd that all the while we’re fighting tooth and nail for interns to be paid the NMW (£5.93) for the jobs that you are doing (because they ARE proper jobs), I’m also reading articles in the Evening Standard about how cleaners should be paid £8.20 an hour (in London at least). Doesn’t that seem strange to you?
As I said in the piece, I think cleaners SHOULD earn the living wage for their work. If we’re saying that that’s the minimum that people need to exist in London, then everybody should earn that as as minimum. Including interns.
I’m not having a go at cleaners – I’m questioning how people who consider themselves to be intelligent and liberal seem to be so sympathetic towards cleaners and so UNsympathetic towards interns (many of whom have shelled out tens of thousands of pounds for your education).
I actually think the cleaners would agree with me. Isn’t that why they encourage their own children to go to university – so that they can earn more than they do?
I actually think the cleaners would agree with me. Isn’t that why they encourage their own children to go to university — so that they can earn more than they do?
Incredibly patronising and presumptuous. Despite all the evidence – an you know the evidence – you still perpetuate the myth that you’ll get paid more if you go to uni – and then constantly rail against stats that say its not the case.
And no I didn’t go to uni and no it hasn’t done me any harm and yes I’ve cleaned.
Just how many goalposts do you want to move?
@Derrick
It’s fine that you disagree with me and find my comments offensive. I can live with that because I’d rather we were discussing this frankly than not at all : )
But can you answer me one question so I’m clear on where you stand:
Do you think it’s right we are moving towards a situation where university graduates (doing a full-time jobs, as interns usually are – not just making tea / sorting post) are earning less (often significantly less) than cleaners?
I can see why people are having a go at what is being called your ‘sense of entitlement’ for us graduates (who do appreciate all the work that you do for us!) This concept that a full-time (desk) job is more challenging than that of a cleaning job appears to be what has riled people. And, more so I imagine, that the title of the post is not ‘should interns make more than cleaners’, it’s ‘should GRADUATES’. They are too very different, seperate issues. And of course, are all affected by industry.
This whole thing reminds me of a very smug, entitled article in Grazia a few months ago on the subject of a Cambridge-educated grad working as a cleaner. http://www.graziadaily.co.uk/talkingpoints/archive/2009/04/28/are-you-part-of-the–lost-generation–of-graduates.htm
@RedHeadFashionista
Re the interns / graduates thing, you’re right I have been inconsistent. But haven’t we reached a rough consensus that most interns are graduates? If so, then in this context the two are interchangeable.
And again, i have not said anywhere that I think cleaners should earn LESS than graduates / interns. I’m just questioning whether it’s a bit strange that they should be earning MORE, given that:
1) when the NMW was introduced in 1998, it was assumed that it was there for the lowest-skilled workers in society, which includes cleaners. If you had told Tony Blair then that this wage would be considered a decent salary by graduates in 15 years’ time, i don’t think he’d have believed you!
2) young people are being encouraged to go to university because they are told it will lead to better, and better paid work than if they don’t go. When graduates are earning less then cleaners, that is clearly not the case, surely?
Or are we saying that it’s okay that graduates should earn less than cleaners, because when (or IF?) they do start earning properly, their wages will increase more rapidly than a cleaner’s, who will have to wait for inflation / tiny rises in the NMW to see any increase in their salary? Because that is a good point – but nobody has actually made it yet, unless i’m mistaken?
Do you think it’s right we are moving towards a situation where university graduates (doing a full-time jobs, as interns usually are — not just making tea / sorting post) are earning less (often significantly less) than cleaners?
Do you think you can make that sweeping generalisation based on the one example above?
Unpaid work covers many sectors, just because graduates spent 3 years at university doesn’t mean they are MORE deserving of paid work than other low paid sectors – agricultural workers, social work, performers etc.
I think you ask the wrong questions because you are unwilling to see a bigger picture in its fullest context. If you continually separate grads out from the wider issue that they are part of then its very easy to dismiss perfectly reasonable points of view and develop and reinforce a somewhat blinkered perspective.
I don’t think Derick and RedHeadFashionista get the point. I currently work in a retail shop and have been for years (during my time at uni and after graduating). I get paid 6 pounds an hour to stand around most of the day, serve customers and occasionally I make tea and hoover. The government demands I get paid for this work.
Yet somehow when I try and get a job at a creative agency I’m expected to work 3 months for free so the company “can get an idea of my skills” even though I have a portfolio of work and a cv with published work. I have creative skill and I know how to use programs like Photoshop and Illustrator very well. This isn’t rare, but it’s not something everyone on the street can do (whereas making tea, watching a shop floor, using a till requires little training) so it is absolutely ridiculous that somehow I should not be paid AT LEAST minimum wage to do something that not everyone can do. Companies are taking advantage of the surplus of graduates to avoid normal business costs and calling Tanya a snob for expecting graduates to be paid a living wage is horrible and definitely does not help anyone.
Muggins,
I absolutely get that point. I also get the point about supply and demand, we’d all love to do creative jobs – but they are oversupplied. That doesn’t make it legal not to pay those who work in them but it does explain the unpaid phenomenon – particularly amongst the glamorous professions – fashion, politics, film/tv.
People don’t want to do repetitive customer service jobs – our Eastern European friends do and demonstrated last week, they are actively stealing the march on the indigenous population.
I agree with your fight – just not the indignation and righteousness, the debate is more complex than that.
I’ve already commented on this via twitter but in reply to the question of whether or not graduates deserve to earn more than cleaners – why should they? The assumption is there that people go to university to earn more money in a job. Personally I went to university a)because I enjoy learning and b)because I wanted to get the kind of job that I would be interested in. Does the fact that I have gone to university mean that I am entitled to more money? No it does not. Yes in general, the jobs that many graduates should get do have higher wages, but I do not see why there should be a sense of entitlement to this. I get paid £7.50 an hour in my internship. I am delighted by this – it provides me enough money to pay my rent, bills, buy food and go out with my friends all the while giving me experience and allows me to get my foot on the career ladder, in which to work my way up to a better wage. I have never once thought to myself ‘well the cleaner here gets paid the same as me, that’s a bit unfair’. She is a lovely lady with a life to live herself and I am no better than her just because I chose to go to university. I am in favour of paid internships because it allows people like me to work in an area which they enjoy. I am in favour of them being paid because I am doing work for an organisation and deserve to be paid. I don’t need to create a hierarchy and claim that a cleaner is at the bottom of it to justify why interns should be paid.
@Muggins
Thanks for your support! : )
And the bizarre contradiction you describe (unskilled shop labour = worth paying; skilled intern labour at a creative agency = not worth paying) is extremely common – and you’re right that this is what I was trying to get at in my post!
Said it before, say it again.
Being able to use a couple of bits of software very well does not constitute a fully rounded worker, merely someone (like a cleaner) who has some tested skills in some areas.
I wouldn’t call an intern who can use two bits of software skilled..and yes I do work in recruitment. That’s one technical skill and typically its untested and hasn’t been used in conjunction other relevant skills in a business context.
We can all do things well, but doing them collaboratively in a business (not educational) environment is what counts, however much we think we learnt at uni or under our own steam.
If you’re that good…go freelance…oh I see you haven’t got the marketing skills…see what I mean?
@Derrick
Final warning! Watch your tone when speaking to other Foggers or I’ll unapprove your comments.
Tanya, you’re a journalist – you are the last person who should be condoning censorship.
You don’t work in this industry, are out of touch with what modern employers want and you also appear to be unwilling to listen to statistic and surveys that tell you otherwise.
What the hell’s a fogger? Last I heard I was someone who reads a blog. Censor for factual accuracy, but as for tone – your’s on occasion is inappropriate (as others here and elsewhere note) but I see no signs of you changing – two words – self censorship.
Derrick, you seem to have no idea about what a blog actually is? Do you think everyone here wants your continuous trolling? I say this now, then I am going to ignore you forever.
There are two types of companies that use interns. Ones that genuinely believe that they are helping to give experience to graduates while they look for that ideal job – the internships they offer don’t necessarily deprive someone of a paid job – it’s about sharing experience.
Then you have the type who use unpaid interns as A)Free labour B) An extended three month job interview. These are there ones you need to concentrate on.
I know people who own small businesses and take on unpaid interns – simply they don’t have the budget to pay them however should this mean they can’t pass on their experience and knowledge?
Graduates need to realise that the time you spent at Uni was theory – You have no experience (and the part time jobs you take to admirably support your way through Uni don’t really count). But you also have to realise that University is no longer a guarantee to a well paid position after those years of hard work.
It would be lovely if everyone could receive a free Uni education but it’s not feasible, the high fee’s are definitely not fair but even granting a free education to the most gifted will not help as there are those who can afford private tutors and those who can’t.
The government are never going to allow a free Uni education as in the current climate they’d be throwing tax payers money to create a further generation of graduates unable to find jobs and pay taxes.
My apologies as I appreciate perhaps some of these comments could have been split into other posts however so sorry about the somewhat disjointed topics.
Oh and just to fuel the flames….(sorry)
The cleaning jobs pay higher than NMW to fill the vacancies.
However as we see there is a surplus of graduates who rightly or wrongly become less valuable than the people filling the jobs that they studied so hard to have to avoid.