FLIP BURGERS TO SAVE UP TO WORK UNPAID, SAYS RUTHLESS CEO OF NEW AGENCY OFFERING PAID-FOR INTERNSHIPS
The founder of a new website which charges people to intern for free has claimed his company offers a useful and valuable service to young jobseekers, by charging them up to £200 to work for free for the day as so-called “Assisterns”.
Kit Sadgrove, chief executive of Etsio.com, told Recruiter:
“There is absolutely pent-up demand from people willing to pay an employer for work experience. It is incredibly cheap if you see it as training, considering you are sitting next to a business owner and learning their secrets.
“If people are keen enough to do this they will go out and flip burgers in order to get the money [they need].”
Graduate Fog can also exclusively reveal how Etsio company is promoting itself to the mainstream media – after one of our contacts at a national newspaper kindly forwarded this press release to us:
From: Kit Sadgrove
Subject: Press release: Businesses Now Get Paid to Take Interns
Date: 2011/10/27October 27, 2011
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASEBUSINESSES NOW GET PAID TO TAKE INTERNS
Controversial new ‘pay-to-learn’ service offers hope for job seekers.
Wedding planners, graphic designers, and advertising agencies are just three of the many businesses now offering training on a new site, Etsio.com.
But unlike traditional internships, the Assisterns, as Etsio calls them, pay the employer for on-the-job training.
And Etsio boss Kit Sadgrove is urging businesses to sign up to his site because of the demand he’s seeing.
The Assisterns gain knowledge and information on their chosen world of work from small businesses who spend time showing them the skills they need.
“We have lots of people who are hungry to get information and skills in their chosen careers,” said Etsio boss Kit Sadgrove. “But with the current high unemployment figures, people are often competing with hundreds of other applicants for one job. Many don’t stand a chance without relevant experience.
“This is a way of helping people get their first step on the ladder. And it encourages small businesses to take on an intern for a few days. If the intern does well, the company may even offer them a position.”
He added: “I’m getting rung up by people who want to take their first steps on a particular career path, but don’t know how to get started. No one is recruiting, so no one gets a chance. This is the ideal time for business owners to look at the wealth of talent that is out there.”
There’s no fee for employers to join; and they can set their own daily fee. Some companies make no charge for the training.
The site is attracting controversy from those who believe that it’s wrong for people to pay for work experience. But Sadgrove said: “How else can people get on the ladder? With the recession, no one is taking on staff.
“Anyone who’s determined to get work experience will see this as a unique opportunity.
“And if you’ve spent £40,000 on a university degree, which is what it costs, a few hundred quid to get experience is a good investment.”
Whereas at an ordinary internship, an intern would normally perform routine tasks like filing, an Etsio Assistern gets a short term, high-impact placement, usually next to the business owner.
Questions have been raised about how Etsio’s business fits with the National Minimum Wage law – which clearly states that anybody with set hours and responsibilities is a ‘worker’ and must be paid at least the NMW (£6.08 for over 21s). Etsio’s website maintains that its business model is legal, stating:
“While it’s a legal requirement to pay workers a minimum wage, our interns are not workers. They don’t have regular tasks, they aren’t under the control of the employer, and they can come and go as they please. The intern is paying to learn, just as students pay to attend university.”
But are Etsio’s Assisterns really just work shadowing? On the company’s home page, it clearly says:
“Small business: Need a temporary assistant or intern? You’ll find them here.”
The website also tells employers:
“…we provide you with a checklist, suggested work activities, and day plans – so you don’t have to spend time working out how to manage them. That way, the intern will be a real help to your business, while getting the experience they need.”
Hm. Doesn’t that appear to suggest that the Assitern will be doing work that’s of value – and that the employer gains useful, valuable labour from the arrangement?
As if that’s not bad enough, Etsio also takes the opportunity to tell would-be ‘Assisterns’ what a burden they are to small businesses:
“Major corporations take interns, because they can afford to, and mostly they pay them. But small companies simply don’t take interns. If you want work experience with the kind of small, exciting professions we deal with, we have to incentivise them to give you work experience. And that means paying them.”
Classy. Happily, Graduate Fog’s friend Alex Try, co-founder Interns Anonymous, was having none of it, telling Recruiter:
“Whatever happened to investing in young people, training them up and helping them to realise their potential?”
Graduate Fog is deeply concerned at what appears to be the latest example of employers using the youth unemployment crisis as a way to cut their staff costs – and boost profits. Young people lack experience, but their work still has great value and they deserve a proper wage for their labour. We know that times are tough for businesses, but we believe they must remember their responsibility towards their young workers – and not demand something for nothing.
*HAVE YOU WORKED AS AN ETSIO ‘ASSISTERN’?
Were you doing real work, which classified you as a ‘worker’, or was the role more like work shadowing, as Etsio claim? If you haven’t worked for Etsio, would you consider it? Or should companies like this be shut down?
I should make a minor correction – Wholesome Nutrition is listed as a dormant company but its status is active and it filed accounts recently.
So, Kit says “But our solicitors says our interns aren’t ’employees’ and therefore the Minimum wages Regs don’t apply.”
However, on the Etsio website Jobs page it says…
“If there are jobs you never quite get around to, hiring a short term assistant could be the answer. Have a think about all the jobs that need doing. And then register with us.
Here are some jobs you might consider:
Write a report
Do research
Media and news monitoring and analysis
Press research
Organise press activities
Draft press release (we have a template)
Etc…”
All the activities on that page sounds like something an employee would be tasked with, to me at least!
Lou: You’re not paying to work. You’re paying for training.
Eugenie: I agree with much of what you say. I believe life is unfair, from the moment you’re born. That said, many of our employers make no charge. And those who are determined will succeed.
Flora: Yes, I think I need to change the wording on the site. Trouble is, English doesn’t have enough words to distinguish between the emerging categories of training, jobs, and internships.
AngryGraduate: If you want to become, say, an Interior Designer, the only way to find out how to do that is to sit beside one. And in general the only way that’s going to happen is if you pay.
Sabrina: That’s an interesting point. If I said you’d be given work, you’d be cross. If I said you’d be just shadowing, you say it doesn’t have value.
Kit
Thanks for commenting. It’s good to be able to have a dialogue.
You allow that “life is unfair” but you then say “those who are determined will succeed” — in many instances it is much easier to be determined and to succeed if you have been given the resources (including but not limited to financial resources) to pursue whatever it is that you aspire to be. There are innumerable social and cultural blocks, and an increasing number of financial ones, that prevent all young people from developing the sort of resilience and other personal competencies needed to succeed. It’s not just unfair, in this country, it is abominable, backwards and wrong. We have the lowest social mobility levels of all developed countries (within the OECD). I don’t champion social mobility (my ideology lies on the egalitarian side of things, I think social mobility is a bandaid solution that perpetuates the class hierarchy), but still, ideology aside, it sucks.
My issue is not with the SMEs, my issue is that Etsio’s solution to the problem of finding work experience (or “training”) for young people is powered by the depths of their own pockets. Especially in a time of economic crisis and when so many austerity measures have resulted in far fewer resources being made available to young people (e.g. EMA, now the intro of uni fees etc).
If you do genuinely believe that ‘life is unfair’, I don’t see how you can construct a business that preys precisely on that unfairness, and in fact augments it.
I do see why your proposition to SMEs is a compelling one – what small business wouldn’t want some extra cash? – but at what cost? I fear that with the level of backlash from graduates and others that many may not want to be connected. There are lots of innovative ways to address social issues, and lots of wonderful businesses, social enterprises, charities and other organisations that seek to support young people to find work in non-exploitative ways.
I am no legal pro so won’t comment on employment law, but the moral hazard of your business model alone is strikingly ‘unfair’.
I wouldn’t be cross, Kit, I just think graduates should be paid for work.
So, which is it, just shadowing at what times you please or proper work at set times which carries the legal entitlement to a wage?
Kit,
So you’re saying “You’re not paying to work. You’re paying for training.”?
It may just be a copywriting issue, and one that needs looking into, but look again at what I copied from your own website, from the section aimed at “employers”…
“If there are jobs you never quite get around to, hiring a short term assistant could be the answer. Have a think about all the jobs that need doing. And then register with us.
Here are some jobs you might consider:”
Look at the copy closely… “jobs”, “hiring”, “assistant”… Nowhere there does it say “intern”, “trainee” or say that for the money you receive you will be expected to offer training of any sort.
It reads like the registration page of a temp agency.
Just something to consider…
Just one other point… You’ve replied to AngryGraduate saying “If you want to become, say, an Interior Designer, the only way to find out how to do that is to sit beside one. And in general the only way that’s going to happen is if you pay.”, which is an erroneous statement at best.
For one, like in most skilled fields, some education or training will be required beforehand, which should be giving you the grounding in your chosen career, so sitting next to a professional in that field isn’t the be-all and end-all of getting into that job. And two, most employers in, say, the creative industries will bring in interns or graduates when feasible for free.
For example, I’m currently the Senior Designer at a design agency and we’ve just brought in a graphic design graduate as an intern because as the year winds down we have some free time, and have decided to put this to use mentoring a young designer. Now this is someone who we may take on as an employee if they show the right potential, but if not then they’ll have gained a month’s experience in a real-world agency environment, which will benefit them in the future.
They’re not being paid for their work, but then they’re not working on live jobs. They’re being trained (by me), and being paid expenses that include their travel to and from work and lunch, so aren’t out of pocket.
At the very least, this is how internships should work.
“If you want to become, say, an Interior Designer, the only way to find out how to do that is to sit beside one.”
Presumably studying art/design/art history/interior decorating is in fact a fairly good start to this career. On the job training is, as with the majority of jobs, a part of the process, but that in no way means you must pay for it, it is how you learn when starting a new job.
“And in general the only way that’s going to happen is if you pay.”
This is a complete fabrication, and is only the case if people like you feel that is is acceptable and are allowed to facilitate it.
My earlier post has gone ignored so far, I would really like a response from you Mr Sadgrove.
Stu – I agree, although being an AngryGraduate I must live up to my name and add that I think the covering of expenses should be the very minimum an intern should receive, and am much more pro minimum wage for interns.
It is only the acceptance of this situation by society that allows it to be the case, if we all refused point blank, it would not be as it is (as with all things, but we seem to be too apathetic to do much about anything). I am worried that if Etsio is allowed to continue this will become the norm, and others will follow where Kit leads. Horrifying.
AngryGraduate has said pretty much what I wanted to say.
Just to add: there are plenty of ways to get training in a particular field without having to pay a company like Etsio.
Stu talked about mentoring, but advice I see from employers time and time again is to go and do that thing you want to do. It doesn’t have to be big or flashy – it doesn’t even have to “succeed” in the financial sense. It just has to be a project that you learn from.
To take Kit’s examples: you can do your own interior designs and put them in a portfolio. Create your own wedding packages by contacting and pricing up various suppliers… You get the picture.
Best of all, it’s your time that you’re investing – not your money.
If I had more time, I’d write a more detailed response to this blog. If there are any grads out there looking for experience, they’d be very welcome to write a response on my behalf. Just send me fifty quid and I shall permit you to write something for me.
“Lou: You’re not paying to work. You’re paying for training”
Interns get this kind of “training” when they work unpaid for companies, you however are sliding in between the companies and the interns and scamming the latter out of money, trading on the fact that there is fierce competition even for unpaid positions.
That is despicable, and you are rightly being held to account for it. How about finding an honourable trade and practising that instead of trading on the desperation of young people to get work?
Cheers Adam, I’m guessing the G is short for gentleman
Kit, what career opportunities does 5 days shadowing you open up for me?
@AngryGraduate… I totally agree that an intern should be paid the minimum wage, but that’s IF they are contributing to billable work (which in my case, our intern isn’t). Obviously there are differences dependant on industry.
You just a bunch of Tory SCUM! Very simple. 1% get richer 99% get poorer.
Stand up and fight these people!
If you are having problems finding an internship that will give you the experience/skills you are looking for, why not look in the charity sector? Loads of charities are desperate for volunteers, and they value those who give up their time. They offer a fair few internships as well as plently of volunteer roles.
You can’t learn every skill there, of course, but mention what you are interested in and see if they have an opening. Over time you should get some help with development.
That’s not to say all charities are good with volunteers/interns- you may have to do a bit of research and apply to multiple charities, evaluating what they offer, but you have a higher chance of a good experience that is mutually beneficial than in other sectors.
Also, they often pay you travel and lunch expenses, and you won’t have to pay £60 a day to be there.
@Richard that’s a good shout. If you’ll excuse the self-promotion, we’ve quite a few video interviews of people talking about what it’s like for graduates working in the charity sector, here’s a particularly relevant one from the Head of Volunteering at Oxfam:
http://www.careerplayer.com/graduate-jobs/charity-and-not-for-profit/charity/volunteering/leisa-ashton.aspx
@Richard and @Adam Gretton
I’ve got to say I’m not sold on the charity sector’s use of unpaid interns – they’re getting worse than the big corporations in terms of exploitation, I think…
You might find this of interest?
Are charities’ unpaid interns true ‘volunteers’?
I agree with Tanya on this one. I used to manage the interns (all unpaid) for a charity and I know all too well how much a charity can rely on them in order to deliver their aims in a cost-effective way. There is of course this grey area between being a volunteer and being an intern, and all too often the one slips into the other, and if it’s manageable from the perspective of both intern and organisation then no-one is all that bothered, CVs are bolstered, jobs are done, and everyone benefits.
Except… since starting my own charity ( one that supports young people find engaging jobs with fair wages), I think it is just plain hypocritical to advocate for a more equal society on the one hand, but to rely on unpaid interns to run programmes.
I admire Left Foot Forward for setting up a separate funding stream so that it can pay its interns. And I am also thrilled about the existence of Vodafone Foundation’s ‘World of Difference’ programme – it pays volunteers on a charity’s behalf for either two months full time or four months part time.
So those are two ways of funding internships in charities. I’m sure there must be more. Any other ideas or schemes would be great to know about too.
If internships to gain experience are the only way into the current job market, what are those of use not lucky enough to live near the city meant to do?
As a recent graduate who lives in Lincolnshire, the only way I could afford to do an internship is to be paid, especially as most of them are offered in London – the place with the highest living costs in the UK.
I would be more than willing to work unpaid for 3 months if there were guaranteed job prospects afterwards, but paying to do internship just ostracises further those of us without the benefit of a close living proximity to the city or rich parents to fall back on. My fear is that if this idea takes off it is likely to start a worrying trend among other businesses and may even become the new norm.
Even more unnerving adverts, companies just wanting people to intern for random companies, who ‘may’ pay expenses and travel, what a laugh!
http://reed.co.uk/l/YNnxU
Totally agree with Sophie. If many graduates can’t afford to work for free, even less paying them! You need to have savings or have a rich parents willing to pay for your “work experience”, and that doesn’t assure you either to get a job afterwards.
I would work free for over 12 months just to get a decent firms name on my CV!
This site, Etsio, does not appear to be functioning any more (if you do a search for a placement you are diverted to a page that says “Sorry, we’re unable to offer this service at present”.
Has the power of Graduate Fog managed to close this site down? Fantastic if it has – charging people to work for a comapny in this way is utterly wrong!
Dear Webmaster,
I work for Recruiter.co.uk and I have noticed you are linked to us on this page
https://graduatefog.co.uk/2011/1779/etsio-pay-to-work-for-free/
we recently updated our system the correct link is
http://www.recruiter.co.uk/archive/part-20/Interns-willing-to-pay-for-work-experience/
Would it be possible for you to update your page with the new correct link?
Best wishes
Sakir Miah