PATRONISING PRESS COVERAGE UNDERMINES THIS SERIOUS ISSUE, SAYS GRADUATE FOG
The BBC has joined the Telegraph and Observer in treating the unpaid internships story with contempt, in my opinion.
Unpaid internships grabbed the headlines again this weekend as the Institute for Public Policy Research said the practice was unfair and must be stopped.
But – as usual – I watched the media’s response to this story with dismay. From every interview that journalists conduct on this subject, I feel their contempt for your generation is obvious – and in their minds, today’s unpaid interns are a bunch of spoilt whingers.
Yes, BBC Breakfast, that includes you. Why invite Internocracy‘s fabulous Becky Heath in to the studio on Saturday morning, only to speak to her like she was a 9-year-old asking for her own pony?
(While I’m on this, who was that woman who was meant to be reviewing the papers after the interview – and felt the need to chime in with her ill-informed opinion on this subject, undermining Becky’s good work?)
And don’t even get me started on James Caan’s advice in the Telegraph last week (‘Graduates should work for free to get ahead’) – or that ‘opinion’ piece by Barbara Ellen in the Observer (‘Hey intern – get me a coffee and stop whingeing’), which regular readers will remember I’ve ranted about before.
My hunch is that this attitude comes from the fact that these ‘commentators’ have worked unpaid when they were starting out, so you should too.
Well, I’ve worked unpaid too (my background is in magazine journalism) – and I’m on your side. And I’m a lot better informed than they are.
The unpaid internship debate IS a legitimate one.
It is not about ‘whinging’ or about your generation expecting ‘life on a plate’. It is about standing up to arrogant bullies who want to continue getting something for nothing when they should be paying you a proper day’s wage for a proper day’s work.
And the situation is a LOT worse now than it was when I (and these sneering journalists) worked unpaid a few years back (more of which later).
Happily, there may be good news on the horizon at last. Back-up has arrived.
Graduate Fog has been invited to join the Internships Alliance, an umbrella organisation campaigning to give interns a fairer deal – and a pay packet.
Pressure groups like Internocracy, Intern Aware and Interns Anonymous do a fantastic job of battling to keep this story in the headlines.
But given that the journalists still aren’t getting the severity of this situation, it’s clear you guys could use some heavyweight back-up to help journalists take this issue more seriously.
Thankfully, it seems that not all companies feel comfortable about taking advantage of young people. And now a growing number of concerned organisations have spotted your plight – and are wondering how they can help.
The Internships Alliance is a collection of enlightened organisations who are concerned about the spread of unpaid internships. They are sympathetic to those doing unpaid internships – and those who can’t afford to do them. And they are switched-on enough to know that in the long-run this situation is bad for business too.
The Alliance has already met a couple of times at the offices of PR firm Luther Pendragon who are managing the movement.
Discussion in the meetings has been heated – and the Alliance’s members don’t all agree on everything.
But the general feeling is that it’s time to try to find ways to TALK to businesses and work WITH them, to drum into them what is (and isn’t) an acceptable way to treat their interns.
At this point, I know many of you will be yelling at your screen: “What’s there to talk about? Just pay us a wage!”
I genuinely wish it were that simple.
Unfortunately, it isn’t.
Why?
Because although we don’t need a change in the law (interns are covered by the minimum wage laws), we DO need a change in the CULTURE surrounding internships.
As Kayte Lawton from the IPPR said this weekend:
“We have a culture where lots of sectors are relying on unpaid work and that is just not fair, both for those who have to do the work and those who do not get the opportunities, so we need a big culture shift.
“We need the big employers to lead the way on this because they have the resources and power to pay interns and make sure they have good working conditions.”
I agree 100%.
As I said in a previous blog post, I think asking you to risk your chances of ever being offered a permanent job somewhere by marching in and demanding the minimum wage for their four-week internship is not fair on you. You need back-up first.
We also need to change the attitudes of the employers who exploit unpaid interns. I know it seems unimaginable but the fact remains that many companies genuinely don’t think they are exploiting you, however long your placement and however much work they give you.
Unbelievably, many really are convinced they’re doing you a favour by giving you an opportunity to gain some experience, as this will help you find paid work in the future – or perhaps this is just how they justify this to themselves, so they don’t have to feel bad about it. Their argument is: “Well I did it and it got me ‘in’, so what’s the problem with them asking this new bunch to work for nothing?”
Well, the problem (I think) is that while internships used to be a short ‘rite of passage’ before landing your first paid job in a competitive industry, they have now become longer and longer, with a decreased likelihood that the placement will lead to paid work any time soon. While nobody was looking, the situation has become completely out of hand.
Factor in the vast increase in graduate debt and it is now almost impossible (or actually impossible?) for graduates from poorer backgrounds to afford to do the internships needed before being considered for a permanent role. Clearly this is disgusting.
On the other side of the fence, the recession means that bosses have come under huge pressure to keep staff costs down. All sorts of corners are being cut within workplaces – and yes, some managers are blatantly taking advantage of their unpaid interns, giving them responsibilities that would (in more buoyant times) have been done by paid workers.
At the same time, competition for jobs has become even fiercer, particularly in media, which the High Fliers research I quoted in Friday’s post revealed was the most popular career choice among finalists. In 1998-9, the number of students on undergraduate media courses was 7,416. In 2008-9 it was 25,335.
The number of media graduates by FAR outstrips the number of media jobs available. So there is no shortage of willing ‘workies’ prepared to do whatever it takes – including working for nothing (if their parents can afford to support them). Meanwhile, the media is in the middle of a serious cash-flow crisis as it gets to grips with the impact of digital technology, so a sudden injection of funds for paying junior staff isn’t looking likely. I’m not sure of the numbers in advertising, publishing, music, PR and politics but I would imagine the situation is similar.
Frankly, the issue of unpaid internships is a huge problem. And it’s you, the graduates, who will lose out until a solution is found.
But we need to move this debate on from the name-calling.
You imply all employers are slave drivers, they call you ‘spoilt’ and guess what? Nothing changes. While slagging each other off is a great way to get an issue noticed in the press, I have my doubts about this tactic ever creating the change you want.
The Internships Alliance is still working on clarifying its exact goals but ideas on the table include:
– Inviting companies to become ‘Internships Alliance-approved’, by signing up to a list of guidelines for the treatment of their interns (including paying the minimum wage). We would ask the big companies to lead the way on this.
– Encouraging employers to make internships more structured, so that the placement brings greater value to both parties.
– Urging the government to get tough on employers who routinely exploit their interns (refusing to pay them for long placements – and rarely hiring them into permanent roles)
– Finding ways to provide greater support to interns to empower them to insist on being paid the minimum wage
– Asking the government to provide financial incentives (tax breaks) for companies who employ paid interns, particularly if they then take them on permanently.
Combined with the good work that has already been started by the internship pressure groups, let’s hope the Internships Alliance can create some real change this summer.
*Do you have any other bright ideas about ways we can fix the unpaid internship problem?
Then just comment below email me direct and I’ll present them at the next Internships Alliance meeting.
*Are you an organisation that would like more info about joining the Internships Alliance?
Email me through this contact form and I’ll tell you how you can get involved.
The right issue, but the wrong people to be heading it up. It’s a disgrace to try and wade into the fight that Internocracy and Interns Anonymous and others have been fighting for some time without them being at the forefront of the ‘Internships Alliance’.
Moreover, Luther Pendragon (a PR firm!) are currently advertising an UNPAID internship on w4mp.org:
http://www.w4mp.org/html/personnel/jobs/disp_job.asp?ref=24933
Get behind Internocracy – who already have a kitemark or pledge – Interns Anonymous and Interns Aware and support their work instead of treating them like 9 year old’s and acting like only the ‘grown-ups’ can sort it out.
The Internships Alliance sounds very murky to us here at Intern Watch, and that’s saying something coming from an anonymous website.
Agree with the comment above entirely. What makes you think YOU can change things where young people are already working hard on this issue – have been for a while and will be even when the media aren’t examining it (which is why you’re interested).
All the so-called ‘solutions’have been outlined already by the organisations mentioned above. And they are doing something about it other than talking. Please don’t muddy the internship waters by starting up ANOTHER short-lived campaign run by middle-aged people trying to make a name for themselves.
@InternWatch
Ouch! I’m 30!
: (
Am genuinely baffled why you aren’t pleased to have some more support on this issue? Surely the more of us that are shouting about this issue, the better, no?
@ Jonny
I AM behind Internocracy – I know Becky and she just RTd my Tweet so they must think I’m doing something right!
Anybody else want to slag me off for trying to do a good thing?!
; )
There are many graduates who just can’t afford to take on unpaid internships. Many graduates have rent to pay and even those who move back home with parents might be asked to pay rent. For those graduates who do take on unpaid internships, they might find that after 6 months of doing it they are heavily in debt. Graduates could only earn a part-time salary for the three years they were at university so many of them are not in a good financial position to do unpaid internships.
Absolutely hilarious that Luther Pendragon are heading this up and advertising for unpaid interns. They are so clearly trying to get some positive PR out of it and don’t care about young people!
Perhaps they should sign up for the Internocracy mark!!
I don’t think they have any credibility now – and this is even before they’ve done anything. I wonder if there are any former Luther Pendragon interns who want to tell Interns Anonymous about their time there… 😉
@Claire
Thanks for your comment – and for reminding us that this is a really serious issue that needs attention FAST.
Do you have any views on what’s the best way to get this issue heard? Do you share Jonny and InternWatch’s views about the leaving the campaigning to those who already seem to have it covered?
My view is that the more people we have shouting about this, the better…
As ever, glad to see GFog helping to lead the charge on this issue. I too have been appalled at the cavalier and dismissive attitude of numerous pundits and commentators, and baffled that they can so readily dismiss the very vocal campaigning on the issue.
As for one of the recommendations:
“Asking the government to provide financial incentives (tax breaks) for companies who employ paid interns, particularly if they then take them on permanently.”
This is already effectively being done. 50 universities in the country are co-operating with local businesses to get graduates employed as interns (often converting in to full-time jobs). In exchange for taking them on, the government pays the employer £1,000. Given that these internships are usually 13 weeks long, that offers a good incentive to take them on when, previously, they wouldn’t have. It lowers the barriers to entry and the cost of taking on/trialling new graduates. In truth, one of the few genuinely worthwhile government initiatives in this area that they’ve implemented.
We list quite a few for the University of Reading GradSEED opportunities, but there are tons of other university careers services which are supposed to be running their own.
Either way, they are guaranteed to be paid (not big bucks necessarily, but at least minimum wage, sometimes a fair bit more) – as they should be!
@Jonny and RNF
I totally hear your concerns about Luther Pendragon – and I have asked them to clarify this matter. I had no idea about that advertised internship and am as keen as you are to hear what they have to say…
Luther Pendragon and the Internships Alliance aside, does anyone agree that it’s a good idea to try and get big businesses on-board with this issue?
What if Tesco, M&S and Microsoft all signed up to a ‘We don’t use unpaid interns’ pledge? Wouldn’t that be a good start for starting that change in culture that the IPPR spokesperson said was needed?
Hi, At Luther we’ve always supported interning (for which interns are paid). Many interns have moved on to full-time work at the company. Our work in helping the Alliance get off the ground has also been unpaid so far. Don’t know what more we can do to show our commitment to the cause guys?
Hi
Intern Aware is also part of the intern alliance and we’re pleased to be able to work with as many people as possible, from inside the industries as well as out, to help solve this problem.
There is no point just making a noise about unpaid internships, we’re committed to getting something done!
Gus
Co Director, Intern Aware
@Chris –
Thanks for clarifying – Do you know how many interns Luther has employed in the last year – and how many of them you’ve then taken on permanently?
@Tanya
Definitely a great idea to get business on board. Our organisation has been discussing internally how to get involved and I think – resources permitted – we’ll be looking at working with Internocracy and other outlets for us to be clear that we are an ethical employer.
We don’t offer unpaid placements and wouldn’t want to work with organisations who do.
To be honest I think the ire that is evident in the comments come more from the fact that I would want to see one powerful, influential and compelling voice about internships rather than a number of disparate voices all calling for variations on a theme.
Otherwise I think there is a possibility that the message gets diluted. Let’s face it, Willetts etc have only a small amount of time to devote to this issue and we should rally around those already spearheading the campaign.
And I don’t think Luther Pendragon whingeing about their ‘unpaid’ work is a good argument to make to young people who can’t even access the unpaid internships in their and other industries.
Sorry for the long post!
Really interesting debate and I’m glad it’s not just me who thinks that sometimes the media doesn’t really ‘get’ the problem with unpaid internships. I’m still waiting on that pony by the way.
Government action on internships (such as it was) stopped with the dawn of the new government it seems – the previous government had made a number of provisions, including financial aid, to help SMEs, charities and universities take on or place interns.
It’s bad news that the government has frozen the Future Jobs Fund, which was helping small organisations in the more deprived parts of the country to take on interns by paying their wages. It seems to me that business (especially SMEs) may be re-assessing their lobbying priorities in the light of more potential government cuts. This is a problem especially when it comes to areas business owners often see as ‘extras’ rather than an increasingly serious issue with repercussions on social mobility, vulnerability of young people in the workplace and the whole culture of graduate employment.
This means that we all need to be raising the issue at every available opportunity, and through every means possible. Whether that is a campaign, blog, organisation or lobbying group, we can all get involved and let policymakers and business leaders know how crucial this culture shift is. While we all come from different backgrounds and may have slightly different takes on the issue, it is clear that we are all looking for a serious commitment by business and government to ensure internships are a fair, constructive and beneficial experience for all involved.
I do have serious reservations around the agenda and practice of the IA led by Luther Pendragon, but it’s clear that Tanya raises a number of valid points on her blog, no matter her age or background, and the debate would be all the poorer without her views.
Finally — do drop by http://www.internocracy.org and get involved with our discussions on our blog http://www.internocracyblog.wordpress.com/.
@Internwatch
I think this comment was a bit harsh! : (
I am well aware of the good work these groups do and I am in touch with Gus at InternAware, Alex at InternsAnonymous and Becky at Internocracy. Believe me, Gus and I sat in the last Internships Alliance meeting fighting for your rights!
I can’t speak for the other members of the Internship Alliance but I am just keen to get this issue as much oxygen as possible, by whatever means necessary.
The fact is that business leaders have an awful lot of power in this country – so I think getting them involved would be enormously useful for us all.
As Becky says, this issue simply isn’t top priority for the new government – and as far as I’m aware nothing major is about to happen to save the class of 2010 from the same fate that the class of 2009 suffered.
I’m just conscious of time and keen to get as much discussion going as FAST as possible.
And if you don’t mind me saying, my blog post hasn’t done a bad job of it!
And I know David Willetts’ office reads Graduate Fog… I’ll email them now to make sure they haven’t missed today’s discussion.
@Tanya
Who are the members of Internship Alliance, what are the terms of reference for the group and how can others get involved in it’s work?
How was it started? Why were only a select group of organisations involved from the start?
Just interested to know!
“Gus and I sat in the last Internships Alliance meeting fighting for your rights!”
Why did you have to?? Why isn’t everyone in the Alliance fighting for interns rights? Sounds odd.
@RNF –
As an invited member of this group of about 20 organisations I think it would be bad manners for me to make this announcement right now without their say-so (plus i’m not exactly sure who is a definite member and who was just nosy enough to turn up to the meeting!) Instead, i have asked the main organisers (not Luther) to respond to your question which I’m sure they will shortly. I hope this is ok.
@Tanya
Thanks, be good to know. Keep up the good work 🙂
@Jonny
OMG your conspiracy theories are EXHAUSTING! ; )
As I said in my post, we had some good discussion within the group – which is exactly what this issue needs – campaigning isn’t enough by itself.
The people at the meeting were from all sorts of backgrounds and although everybody involved wants to do something about this problem, some did not understand all the subtleties of this very complicated issue.
I know you don’t think it’s complicated, but it is! That’s why Intern Aware, Interns Anonymous and Internocracy haven’t fixed it yet. It’s a real headache. Interns are asking for money but that money has to come from somewhere. The government looks unlikely to provide it and many businesses are struggling to avoid making large-scale redundancies so – right or wrong – paying their interns isn’t top of their list right now.
Some of the best debate was around what the IA should actually DO – and what were the consequences of these actions. For example:
– If we’re saying that ALL internships (from 1 day to 1 year) are paid the minimum wage (including holiday pay as the TUC says), a lot of people were concerned that many businesses (particularly small businesses) would no longer offer placements at all. Is this really what we want?
– How could we support interns in asking for the minimum wage? Gus and I explained that it wasn’t always easy to march in on Day One and demand payment when you’re trying to make a good impression!
– Many employers argue that they don’t get much value from their interns – in fact they feel they spend a lot of their time showing interns the ropes and not getting that much back from them, so to ask them for money for doing this is unlikely to go down well. What would we say to them? (The general feeling on this was to make internships more valuable to both parties by making them structured and longer – provided they were paid of course).
– But if internships become longer then fewer graduates will benefit from the experience of working there… Is this what we really want?
– How do we explain to businesses that what they’re doing isn’t right, without demonizing or alienating them?
– And, if all internships become paid, it’s a fact that there will be fewer available – so fewer graduates will benefit from these opportunities. What are the consequences of this? Is that really what we want?
As I said, I know this issue seems so simple to graduates. But if you factor in the business side of it, it really is very complicated. If it was easy, it would have been solved ages ago!
@Becky
Thanks for your kind words – very much appreciated.
But what’s with all these references to my advancing years?!
I’m 30 – not 130! ; )
Hi All. Sorry for the late reply, I’ve had irreversible commitments out of town all day. This is proving to be an emotive issue but I think Tanya, Luther et al have good intentions and it’s a shame to see these derided. I wasn’t ready to take this in to the public domain but events have dictated otherwise so here’s my current take:
1) WEXO: I am the Co-founder and MD of WEXO (Work EXperience Online) – http://www.wexo.co.uk). WEXO is a matchmaking network for work experience, internships and jobs. It works with over 400 companies including Sony Music, Armani and Working Title, as well as many start-ups, charities and SMEs. WEXO aims to take the nepotism out of the work place by helping its members (currently 9000) access the exciting roles they deserve based on who they are, not who they know.
2) THE INTERNSHIP ALLIANCE: We came up with the idea for The Internship Alliance when we were introduced to Luther Pendragon earlier this year. It is in its early stages – membership has not yet been confirmed (so no website and no press release yet). NB: Luther Pendragon is one of the most reputable lobbying companies in London. I don’t know – they might be offering an expenses paid internship but I wouldn’t be surprised if the team we speak to even know of this and as per below I wouldn’t be surprised if the HR team even knew their obligations. As I understand it, it’s a grey area and undergraduates can legally pursue unpaid internships if their university approves it anyway?
3) MEMBERS: The Internship Alliance is envisaged to be a grouping of those who work in and around the internship placements industry. Collectively they work with a huge range of companies across Britain. Those who have been consulted and attended meetings all have a niche and include WEXO, STEP, Give A Grad A Go, Intern Aware (who we asked to either represent or ask along Interns Anonymous and Internocracy), Graduate Fog, The Student Room, Wikijob, Rate My Placement, Inspiring Interns, Enternships, Student Beans, AIESEC, Brave New Talent, The National Council for Work Experience, and Business In The Community (BITC — who run Sir Stuart Rose’s ‘Work Inspiration’ initiative). I hope I haven’t missed anyone. Any relevant organisations are welcome to email us if they are interested in joining: info@wexo.co.uk
4) RATIONALE: I believe that neither the government nor the Higher Education authorities (who currently hold the purse strings for the financial incentives mentioned above but don’t seem to be able to fill their quotas) are best placed to run internships schemes and that this should be the preserve of the private sector which is both accountable and incentivised. We believe that the government will only listen to a united front that has come up with practical, ideologically compatible and well scrutinised suggestions for change. United we stand divided we fall.
5) CONFLICTING VIEWS: The aim of the Alliance is to understand the various calls for change on internships. Tanya and Intern Aware have fought very hard for National Minimum Wage as a base requirement. As Tanya is sick of me saying, I always pay my interns at least NMW and I encourage all the companies we work with to do the same. We have also worked with STEP initiatives via BIS and LDA schemes to incentivise companies to this end. However, other parties in the alliance are understandably nervous that if we apply too much ‘stick’ companies will simply close their doors to all forms of work experience. Wouldn’t this be worse than the status quo? Most companies (particularly the SMEs who contribute 70% of GDP) simply don’t understand how things work and have 10s of people knocking on their doors volunteering to work (as per above, some undergraduates are legally entitled to work for free — this is an area that Rate My Placement think particularly needs addressing). Companies often believe they are doing graduates a favour by just taking them in — this is not their area of expertise. It is also difficult to justify taking on paid interns when they are making redundancies elsewhere. Some start-ups simply can’t afford to pay their interns (many founders don’t pay themselves) but if someone wants to volunteer to do something for free (or for equity or promise of pay further down the line), shouldn’t a libertarian society allow this?
6) SUGGESTIONS: This is a very tough economy and many companies are struggling in ways that we might not even comprehend. Constrained cash flow and competing budgets may even partly explain why many of the aforementioned companies cannot commit financially to get the Alliance moving. We believe strongly though that the way to address our collective concerns is to lobby government to incentivise (not enforce) companies to take on interns and pay NMW (or preferably more). Our initial research suggests that a Tory based government that is rolling back the state will not dedicate much time to calls for more regulation (and I cannot get any ‘big hitters’ to endorse this though they do approve of the Alliance per se). My personal suggestion (derived from Vince Cable’s) is that companies should be allowed to recoup the cost of a limited amount of internships offering NMW from any VAT hike. That makes it a no brainer. We all know UK Plc has very little left in its coffers; but if they’re being filled back up then a corresponding investment should be made in graduates who have historically generated a Return On Investment of 500% over 3 years.
7) ALLIANCE OBJECTIVES: As discussed these are still being debated but the current consensus would tend to suggest:
– Unite relevant organisations to work with government in the creation and promotion of student and graduate-friendly policies and address inconsistencies in current legislation.
– Promote the democratisation of access to internships, ensure that they provide structured guidance and relevant training (and propose that they are recognised and credited in the higher education curriculum).
– Help incentivise companies (particularly SMEs) to invest in graduates and internships, and to take on interns both during and after university.
8) NEXT STEPS: In the absence of any financial support, Luther and WEXO will be issuing a press release on this in the next week or so. We would like to be as representative as we can and we would be delighted to hear from any organisations who want to be a part of what we are fighting for. Please contact us at info@wexo.co.uk if you would like to get involved.
I think a lot of this debate is good. I am from the class of 2009 and Tanya helped me secure a job with her fantastic book and her support via email and phone. I managed to secure a job but just under a year later I have found myself redundant.
I decided to go travelling just to get away from the situation for a while and o take this chance to go. I come back in just over a month and the situation seems to have got worse. I come from a family that is comfortable, but could not support me on an unpaid internship for any length of time. I will find myself on the dole, in huge debt (due to first year of top up fees) and even though I now have a years experience, no prospects really. I am not thinking that I am entitled to a job. I would take anything. It is just the fact that whatever I apply for I either do not have enough experience, to much experience or cannot afford to work unpaid.
For example, I was offered 5 internships with theatres in London, but they were all unpaid. Not even expenses. So for travel in each month alone that would be nearly 300 pounds. Then I would have rent, food and anything else I would need. I simply could not afford to work for free!!
Inspiring Interns, in my opinion and many others’, represent what is wrong with internships in the current climate.
I’m really disappointed that they are part of this grouping with Luther Pendragon. How on earth can they tell government – on behalf of businesses and young people – how to solve the problems around internships?!
Why don’t you just stop all of this posturing and get behind Intern Aware, Interns Anonymous and Internocracy? Wouldn’t that be more powerful?
We seem to me going over old ground here…As a graduate looking for employment, personally I wouldn’t care who fixed the issue (Although I would be grateful)…surely, more voices are better than one? So if the intern alliance wants to join in the fight – let them. I don’t see why you seem to want to look a gift horse in the mouth? Personally, I’d be grateful if anyone wanted to fight for my causes. I’ve snagged me an expenses only internship…I’m not mad at it because at least I get lunch and travel paid for. other people don’t have that luxury to accept such experiences and I know they’ll be unhappy to know that presently,it is all talk and no action. Let’s get moving and stop focusing on the irrelevant.
I couldn’t agree more Lucy. I wholeheartedly respect what Intern Aware, Internocracy and Interns Anonymous are doing from their end — AS THEIR NAME SUGGEST THEY REPRESENT THE INTERNS!
But you/these guys aren’t going to win this battle by continually playing the same card from one side of the table when the game has probably (for right or for wrong) moved next door. WEXO and all the other companies that we have spoken to (including Inspiring Interns) are doing what they can to engage employers to open their doors to graduate talent. And we are also trying to get (under)graduates paid as much as we can (be it short term or long term). WE ARE COMPANIES AND WE REPRESENT COMPANIES. BUT I THINK WE ALL BUY INTO STAKEHOLDER VALUE (RATHER THAN JUST SHAREHOLDER VALUE). YOU NEED COMPANIES AND WE’RE LISTENING TO YOU — DON’T WRITE US OFF QUITE YET!
@Lucy I agree.
It looks like there is a bit of a territorial battle going on here. Intern Aware, Interns Anonymous and Internocracy are getting a bit worried about losing their share of the internship market. What they have essentially done here (to put it in cat terms) is to piss all over the comments section with their competitive slur. An interesting insight into what they really care about, I think you will agree?
@James
Thanks for your comment – however I’m not sure what you’ve written is entirely accurate and I wouldn’t want anyone to think that there was a ‘them’ versus ‘us’ thing developing between the intern pressure groups and the rest of us since, as you say, this would be counter-productive for us all!
I’m sure the pressure groups will correct me if I’m wrong (!) but i think the problem we here is that because they have been so clear on what they’re campaigning for (minimum wage for all interns, provided by the employers – with no room for any flexibility), there is now a concern that involving other organisations in the ‘fight’ could compromise the fight’s aims.
My feeling is that although there is a small risk that this might happen by opening the debate up to include as many different voices in this debate as possible (including those of business leaders) – the possibilities of what you might GAIN far outweigh this.
For example, perhaps employers might be prepared to agree to the minimum wage for all placements – but not holiday pay, which the TUC says you are entitled to legally. Would you be willing to accept this? That’s just a silly example but my point is that it all depends on whether you are prepared to even consider any kind of compromise.
I do feel strongly that if interns are asking businesses to see things from YOUR point of view, i think it would be a good look to make the effort to see things from THEIR point of view too. I agree with Robin that shouting about this will only get you so far. The debate needs to move on – and I think this is the direction it is moving in.
As Lucy says (and it seems you agree?), it doesn’t really matter WHO pushes to create change as long as it happens – and happens fast. And surely anything is better than the current situation?
I think there is this belief that interns/graduates should be sacrifical lambs about work placements.
Which is a fallacy created by self-serving companies who only care about turnover, instead of executing a successful company vision, which in turns earns more money.
Did you know that NetFlix, the LoveFilm of the USA, have a policy of paying all employees the topline salary in each bracket? They make millions of pounds each year.
With my careers website, I am dedicated to growing the graduate careers of young people in PR and marketing. However, I want to see them all in jobs that pay them a fair wage for their professional work.
Kagem Tibaijuka
Founder of vox-popPRcareers
This is a really interesting debate and here at Internocracy we’re keen to hear from as many people as possible and work with them to push this issue forward.
A lot of the posts really sum up why we set up Internocracy in the first place. Our tag-line is ‘lowering the barriers and raising the bar in internships’ and we recognise that to do this by working with young people and employers together to bring about sustainable change.
Although we hadn’t heard of the Internships Alliance until this story by Tanya, it is good to see that people are picking up on the issues we have been working hard on since 2007.
In particular, we’d be delighted to work with anyone willing to help us to promote our youth-led accreditation for internships (the ISIP Mark). So far we’ve got over a dozen organisations signed up since January this year including top4 accountancy and magic circle law firms, large charities and start-up social enterprises. All of the organisations we work with comply fully with the National Minimum Wage Act, as no one can get away from the fact that this law exists.
What unites us at Internocracy, the members of our Interns Network and our partner organisations accredited by Internocracy is a commitment to work together to resolve the issues around internships.
So thanks Tanya for bringing about this discussion, and for anyone interested in what we do please do get in touch with us on hello@internocracy.org if you’d like to find out more about how we help young people access internships and work with employers to create inspiring and engaging internships.
Dom from Intetnocracy
I have worked at Luther Pendragon as an intern having done previous internships before that so know that a good internship can be rewarding and amazing experience. However, I was treated badly as an intern at Luther and given very menial tasks to do and learnt little. The “payment” did not even cover my travel expenses each month.
I’m interning at the moment, but the company treats me like a regular employee with an actual job title (she says, while on a blog and not doing her work), which makes a change to the place I was at before where I was general minion and also had to wash up everyone’s soup-bowls in the morning. I’m unsure if this is good, meaning they’ll make me a team member with a salary one day, or bad, in that they’ll forget that they don’t pay me and just let me get on with getting poorer and poorer until they look very surprised when I have to leave due to lack of funds.
And I couldn’t even finish reading that Guardian piece, it was so disgusting. Especially considering that paper is supposedly reading material of choice for students.
@RedHeadFashionista
Ugh, i know – isn’t it horrid?! : (