THIS WEBSITE WILL NOT WORK WITH COMPANIES WHO ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM
Today, Graduate Fog announces that this site is no longer a member of the Internships Alliance.
Although it’s still my opinion that the next move forward for the unpaid interns’ debate is to involve businesses, it’s also my opinion that the members of this Alliance are not the right group for the task.
Did you miss last week’s drama? I’ll fill you in…
Basically, I made a massive schmuck of myself by announcing to the world that Graduate Fog was a member of a new interns’ rights pressure group called the Internships Alliance – before being informed by you lot that:
1) Luther Pendragon – the PR firm running the Alliance – is currently advertising for their own unpaid intern
and
2) one of the other members (Inspiring Interns) earns fees for themselves from finding interns for their clients – but the interns themselves then work unpaid.
Egg. On. My. Face.
I take full responsibility for the fact that I did not know either of these things until that moment. I should have done my homework better. I was naive to assume that everybody in the group had the same values as me.
Had I known either of these facts up-front, I would never have agreed to become a member of the Alliance.
For me, this information changed everything. I became uncomfortable about being a member of an organisation that I no longer trusted. If Luther Pendragon and Inspiring Interns weren’t who I thought they were, who might the other people be that I’d carelessly aligned myself with? How exactly were members being selected and approved?
I emailed Robin Kennedy – boss of WEXO and founder of the Internships Alliance – explaining my concerns and requesting that the Alliance:
– Finds a different PR firm to run the campaign (or tells Luther Pendragon to start paying their interns)
– Removes Inspiring Interns from the Alliance immediately
– Draws up a list of criteria that all new members of the Alliance must fulfill
– Conducts an assessment of the existing members’ eligibility, using the above criteria – and
– Reorganises the membership approval system so that all new members must be approved by existing members.
Unfortunately, Robin said he was unable to agree to these terms.
So – as they say on Dragon’s Den – I’m out.
I really am sorry for the way this episode has panned out.
I genuinely think that a group of well-intentioned businesses from a variety of backgrounds could bring a great deal to this debate and ultimately put more weight behind the fight for a fairer deal for interns.
But in my opinion the Internships Alliance isn’t it.
Perhaps another group like this will emerge, this time containing only organisations that genuinely want a fairer deal for interns? In which case I would love to be part of it.
In the meantime, I have learned the hard way that I must be more careful in future about who Graduate Fog gets into bed with.
I hope that Graduate Fog’s users will forgive me and believe that my only crime was sheer dumb-arse stupidity.
And I hope the fact that I am just about to receive several angry phone calls and emails from members of the Alliance – all furious about this post – will prove that I’m on the level.
(Robin has already warned me that “No one likes a turncoat”. Nice).
Wish me luck.
I am a doofus.
Sorry, folks.
Tanya x
*Did I do the right thing?
It’s lonely up here! If you have a couple of minutes, please share your thoughts. Thanks!
You’re not a doofus. You joined a group that you believed (as they claimed) want to improve the way interns are treated and paid. The embarrassment should come from the Internships Alliance, and no doubt that will be the main reason behind any angry phone calls/emails.
As for the turncoat comment, surely that’s bordering on slightly threatening behaviour?
Tanya I admire your willingness to admit when you’ve got it wrong just as much as your desire to ‘do something’ about graduate employment and employability.
We get bombarded with requests to link to sites, promote companies, tell students about third party or recruitment organisations and it can be difficult and time consuming to check them out, particularly new sites/organisations claiming to be what is missing in the market. I tend to treat all such claims with scepticism until I learn otherwise, usually from personal contact.
It isn’t black and white though and you’ve gone from proclaiming Internships Alliance to being the way forward for all to all but denouncing them as con artists. Either way, the message is confused.
I would not presume to lump all your graduate fans together as they could have very different needs and world views. I read the article you tweeted from The Guardian with the student who unfortunately had their offer from the Home Office withdrawn. They were quoted at the end saying they thought the govt. should offer unpaid internships for work experience.
Anyway, I’ll keep reading and following your site 🙂
Thanks so much Emma – that’s really nice to have your support. No nasty phone calls or emails as yet… but i think they will come!
(Although maybe not if people FINALLY start to twig that any dodgy emails they send me will just get posted straight on Graduate Fog..?!) x
@Matt – thanks for your kinds words!
Re confused messages – I’m very aware that supporting the IA and then quitting was not an ideal look for me! And you’re also right about Graduate Fog’s users having diverse opinions – so perhaps I should just toughen up and accept that I’m never going to be able to please all people, all the time! ; )
The internships debate is a very complex one indeed, which is exactly why I think we need to keep discussing it… Whether we all agree on the small print, I think we all agree that something needs to change – and fast. In the meantime, I’m glad to have had so many nice emails from people thanking me for providing a forum for discussion of all these things. I really do think that’s the first step to changing the current situation. (And likewise with the issue of careers advice in general – if we can’t even TALK about the fact that it’s not working, what hope is there that it will change?)
@Tanya
A brave and thoughtful decision and one which I fully support. I agree with @Emma and think you deserve immense credit for putting your principles first.
I think WEXO in particular come out of this whole scenario appallingly. Your request to make the group open and transparent is quite right and it speaks volumes as to the motivations of the groups involved in the Alliance that they were unwilling to agree to such simple requests.
Good luck with Graduate Fog, I’ll continue to follow it closely.
I don’t think you could have done anything differently, given the situation:
(1) Completely standard that you would support a group which was campaigning to create change by actually working with business rather than shrilly making demands.
(2) You’d have been a hypocrite to not quit the alliance after the facts re. unpaid internships came to light. Far better to appear to have not been thorough in checking the credentials of your colleagues than to be a hypocrite.
Good move, and I’m sure that regardless of any lambasting you take from ex-allies, the users of Graduate Fog will completely understand the situation and the actions you’ve taken.
Good on you @Tanya!
Good on you Tanya! Not an easy decision – and certainly not easy to say you made a mistake. I don’t know of anyone else who’s taking up the cudgels on behalf of graduates with so much courage and determination – way to go!
@RNF, Gareth Rees, Intern Watch and Clare
Thanks for your support folks, it really means a lot : )
You won’t be shocked to hear that the Alliance wolves are already out for blood… Various emails have appeared in my inbox this afternoon. I’ve told them all they’re welcome to comment directly on Graduate Fog – but they all seem to have gone strangely quiet…?
Tanya,
With regard to your (mis) quotation
“Robin has already warned me that ‘No one likes a turncoat’. Nice.”
Don’t you think that is a touch disingenuous? The full context of the quote reveals that it was in fact in admiration of your hitherto strong stance. For the benefit of your readers, I have included the original paragraph from my PERSONAL advice below…
“I would encourage you to stick to your guns — no one likes a turncoat — and push your agenda from within”.
I am disappointed that you feel unable to continue to work with any alliance. Your input has been hugely valuable up until now.
As you yourself have written on your own blog, concerning this matter: “I do feel strongly that if interns are asking businesses to see things from YOUR point of view, i think it would be a good look to make the effort to see things from THEIR point of view too. I agree with Robin that shouting about this will only get you so far. The debate needs to move on…”
The debate does indeed need to move on. It is about fostering a culture of open communication and mutual understanding. This is the only way we can make a real difference to the existing practices surrounding internships and payment.
As you have said yourself “..it doesn’t really matter WHO pushes to create change as long as it happens — and happens fast. And surely anything is better than the current situation?”
As you say anything is better than the current situation. There is always a chair for you at this table…
I will leave the last words to Martin Luther King: “We may have all come on different ships, but we’re in the same boat now. ”
Robin Kennedy, WEXO Co-Founder & CEO
I really like this blog! It’s about the only career related resource that actually provokes thought and doesn’t make you fall asleep on your keyboard. Really good to see Robin respond and diversity of opinion is what makes this comments section so good.
From my POV i do rather think the Internship Alliance has a bit of a credibility problem now. They may argue about business realities but if you’re championing a cause you have to be, act and represent the solution in the way you do it. Whiter than white.
@Robin,
I confess I didn’t really understand the context of the ‘turncoat’ comment but the phrase in itself did come over as a bit controlling, given the circumstances. If this was not your intention then I misunderstood. Let me know if you would like me to publish the entire contents of that email so that there is no further ambiguity.
The one thing I felt was missing from your email was an apology to me for the damage caused to my own reputation by becoming part of your group – and following instructions from your own PR man at Luther to publicise the Alliance. It was my mistake not to investigate the other members (and Luther) more closely, but I didn’t do this because I trusted your judgment. It turned out that I was wrong to do this. I was surprised that you did not acknowledge this in your email.
Regarding my own views on the need for the internships debate to move forward, I think I have already made these clear and see no reason to bore Graduate Fog’s users by stating them yet again! I should just add that I agree with @Jim – whoever campaigns for this issue must be ‘whiter than white’ themselves, or I fear there will always be a problem with credibility.
But look, I really didn’t want to get into a slanging match over this. If the Internships Alliance can do any good in the battle for a fairer deal for interns, I really would be pleased. I just have doubts about the credibility issue and feel that it was no longer something that I can be part of.
Shall we just agree to differ? Are you going to the CIPD thing tomorrow?
@Jim – thanks so much for saying you love Graduate Fog! I agree that this is the ONLY place for this kind of debate… You certainly won’t find anything similar on Prospects! ; )
Today has been fun – but is anyone else EXHAUSTED? This afternoon has been beyond intense!
I’m off to the pub in a minute – does anyone else want to have a go at me before I head off?!
Just a quick word of support Tanya. I think that your decision to support the Internships Alliance was made in good faith and now that aspects of the way it is run and indeed its credibility have been (rightfully) called into question you have made the best of a bad situation by clarifying your reasons for no longer working with and supporting the Alliance. Basically I think that there is no justification for unpaid internships or indeed unpaid work of any sort(particularly by qualified and educated people). Any organisation claiming to be working in the best interests of students/graduates/interns which promotes or otherwise supports unpaid work of any sort has no credibility and is highly hypocritical in my opinion. You did the right thing. Enjoy the pub and keep fighting for the basic human rights of graduates!
United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 23):
“Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity”
@tanya
I really appreciate the work you are doing in trying to bring something different to the pretty stuffy graduate market. You obviously truly care about this issue and are doing your best to make it a more inclusive place.
BUT…
Your mixed messages are really confusing me. It’s not just about the internship issue, although the ‘Internship Alliance ride to the rescue’ tone of your previous post and your subsequent retraction shows at least some personal misjudgement.
It’s also some of your other posts. The government ‘blundered’ in not hiding email addresses when sending out its rejection email, yet you are happy to use these private addresses for your own use and benefit, to the anger of at least one graduate accoding to the post’s comments.
You roundly mock Prospects (with some reason) but you list them as a ‘genius’ website in your own book.
University careers offices are rubbish, yet the Careers Group London- who endorsed your book- are great even though they are also a member of the much maligned AGCAS.
Plus the ‘world is against me’ attitude doesn’t really help the debate. Why would the Internship Alliance or Prospects send you threatening emails? Surely you are all trying to work towards the same goals? Maybe I’m missing the mafiosi element of the graduate employment world!
It’s probably just me, but I think the sensationalist tone of some of your posts detracts from the seriousness of the issue, and ultimately the good work you are trying to do.
Anyway, rant over – I really hope you keep the blog going and enjoyed the pub last night!
@Smud
Boy, you guys are a tough crowd! But I wouldn’t want it any other way – you keep me on my toes ; )
Thanks for taking the time to read all my work so closely – and for the nice things you have said about it.
As for your criticisms, I have only one defense: I’m a real life human being, not a robot!
Dude? was published in June 2008, but it was actually written in 2007. Since then, many things have changed. The recession has made the graduate jobs market a ‘buyer’s market’, tuition fees have risen again and there are more graduates than ever before for fewer jobs and in greater debt.
But another thing that’s changed is that I am a lot more knowledgeable about the graduate issue as a whole. My opinions are not fixed, they are constantly evolving. I can see your point when you say you find my work ‘confusing’ but I’m not sure what the alternative is. Should I just stick to one opinion for the rest of time, when the world is changing around us and new information and problems are arising all the time? I’m afraid I can’t promise to do that as I don’t think that’s the answer. I don’t have all the answers and a lot of the stuff we talk about on this site is extremely complex. So in the meantime if you would like to keep following this blog I suggest you bear with me – although of course you are free to question me on any change of heart that I may have! (this is actually really useful as i often don’t notice it myself!)
I actually think it’s a strength to keep an open mind (and admit when you’ve got it wrong – as I did over the IA), not a weakness. Likewise, my views on Prospects and the university careers advisers are liable to change too. I try to be fair to everybody and think Prospects do a good job of that ‘what every job in the whole world is’, so i have included a link to that. I certainly have no desire to do anything similar as it’s a massive task and they’ve done a good job of it. But do i have serious questions about the way they operate? Absolutely – you know I do. As for the careers advisers, the Careers Group are one of the best providers of uni careers advice out there. But likewise, i do have questions about the whole approach of universities towards careers advice in general.
Are you still reading? Okay…! I have already addressed my decision to contact those affected by the Home Office story in an earlier post, but i’ll say again that I knew when I did that that there was a risk I would be called a hypocrite. But in the end it came down to what I would want if mine had been of the names leaked – and if it were me I would want to know that my details were safe. In that email, i was careful not to include a link to the blog post, nor encourage recipients to visit this site. I had no wish to be ‘salesy’ as that does not fit with the ethos of my work. I have apologised to anybody who felt that was a bad decision on my part – I know everybody feels differently about this kind of thing. As i’ve said, i give my word that I have now binned those email addresses and will not use them again, nor pass them on to anybody else.
As for the tone of the blog posts on this website… well I’m afraid that’s my call, not yours! ; ) One thing the world does not need is yet another boring careers website, and I’m very happy with the way things are going on Graduate Fog – i think the tone is a large part of why this site ‘works’. But thank you for your feedback, it’s good to be aware that not everybody is enjoying it – then I can decide whether to tone it down or not. I am well aware of the seriousness of this subject – i have been warning of a tough summer for over a year now – but i’m not sure anybody would want to read about this stuff if it was delivered in a funereal tone…? : (
And finally (still there?) I would like to make the point that the things you praise me for and the things you criticise me for both come from the same source – my passion for this subject. Call me a geek, but i really really care about this stuff! I genuinely think your generation of grads has been given a very raw deal – and it makes me really, really angry – I have no idea why, but it’s true! Occasionally, I’m aware that i seem angrier than some of you are, which genuinely surprises me and I’m still trying to work that one out! Is it because I know that it wasn’t always this way? (I graduated in 2000, in zero debt and into a buoyant jobs market – it was a picnic by comparison!) I genuinely believe you have been dealt a particularly bad hand, for various reasons. If I seem to be trying to stir up trouble (!) it’s only because I’m trying to encourage you to question your situation, so we can shout louder and get something done to improve it for you. I can’t do it on my own – it won’t work without you. But perhaps it’s not my place to do this? Perhaps I should be more willing to accept that not everybody feels as I do and to accept that some of you would rather just knuckle down and get on with making the best of the hand you’ve been dealt, rather than getting yourselves worked up. (Or perhaps those readers should skip the Blog and just read the Advice section?!) ; )
My point is that the very reason why Dude? and Graduate Fog have happened, and that this blog is growing so fast (an update is on its way soon) is the SAME reason why I sometimes act first and think later, get things wrong, come across as ‘sensationalist’. That’s just me I’m afraid, so my users will have to forgive me and accept that these are just two sides of the same coin! If i was a passive, measured person then the book and blog would simply not have happened.
I hope this addresses some of your concerns about this site and that you decide to keep visiting. As I say, I’m very open to criticism (as long as it’s reasoned and not ranty) as it’s important that I factor you lot into what I choose to publish on this site. That way, i know that although i can’t please everybody all the time, I can make sure it’s hitting the mark with as many of you as possible. I don’t want to end up talking to myself!
PS I have never suggested that anybody has sent me a ‘threatening’ email. They haven’t, and to suggest that they had would be libelous!
Any organisation that seeks to improve the interns’ lot should be supported, however any organisation that positions itself as the interns’ friend must be entirely behind the notion that where interns are used as workers they must be paid at least the legal minimum. I’ve campaigned on this issue for over five years now, long before interns were called interns, and I’ve seen the tide of opinion eddy and flow over the years.
One thing I do know however and that is that it is it wise to choose ones bedfellows carefully. Organisations such as Inspiring Interns are businesses. They receive their money by placing interns into the workplace and have repeatedly done so even when those interns are being used as illegal unpaid workers. That kind of organisation should be regarded with great caution, as should any campaign group that has them, and other similar organisations, as partners.
There are organisations that seek to improve the interns lot (like Interns Anonymous, Intern Aware and Internocracy), and those that seek to make money out of trading in unpaid workers (eg Wexo and Inspiring Interns). They are very separate and very different in intention – you are wise to opt out Tanya!
@Mark Watson, thanks for your support!
I read your post keenly, because I am torn.
At present I am an intern, working for free (travel and expenses paid) through Inspiring Interns. Inspiring Interns waived my company’s fees for taking me on, by swapping me in return for my company’s services. It just makes you feel like a piece of meat.
I am happy at the company, but it is made clear that you are an intern, and that big decisions must always be passed on to someone else. I say big decisions. Maybe mediocre choices.
But of course it will boost my CV. In fact it has done. On the back of this internship, I have a paid summer placement with a top top company.
So given that working for free will give me such a boost in the long term, isn’t it just worth it to grin and bear it for a short time?
I would say yes, if it were not for the fact that working for free is only possible if you’re not desperate for money. Some people’s parents just can’t afford to house and feed their student offspring as they slave away in search of a real job. And so why should the affluent get that head start? It reeks of injustice.
So, I fully support your drive for a fairer solution for interns. But unfortunately, and selfishly, I don’t think that I can really afford to cut all ties.
You can check out my blog, following my search through the graduate soup, trying to find a job here: http://the-saturated-solution.blogspot.com/
Rhianna
@tanya
Just to say thanks for responding as I didn’t want to come across as a hit and run poster.
I take on board your points, will continue to read and continue to debate/praise/criticise/whatever.
But then I’m sure you wouldn’t want it any other way…
@ Smud – Great, do keep coming back! You know we always like a good scrap here on Graduate Fog ; )
Hi Tanya
I am a bit of an old codger so certainly would not qualify as young and graduate but I started reading your web-site because I have been involved in researching and writing about the “enforcement” of the Minimimum Wage. I have a lot of sympathy with your position and applaud your decision to withdraw from the Alliance. From my long experience of business it appears that many employers are happy to take advantage of vulnerable workers and pay the absolute minimum they can get away with. Internships must be the holy grail – you pay them nothing. My advice would be to take a very cynical view of employers – and particularly PR agencies who are paid to spin.
I have an idea. Why don’t you organise a meeting inside the House of Commons in one of the Committee Rooms to discuss the role of internships and circulate it within the House in order to get as many Parliamentary interns as possible to turn up. You could also invite the Press along and see who turns up. You probably already know how to set up a meeting but if you want any help or advice I would be happy to help. Cameron is all for transparency in Parliament – lets put it to the test.
It may be a total failure – in which case we could speculate that the interns do not want to jeopardise their position. Alternatively, you might get some. You should learn something from the exercise. I don’t think you have anything to lose.
What do the interns do in the House of Commons. If they are doing a proper job they should get paid. If they are there to get trained I thought MP’s were very busy?
All the best
Alan Sealy
Thanks for this Alan – and your idea is a really good one! Why don’t you suggest it to the founders of Intern Aware? http://www.internaware.org./
While I’m really interested in the political aspect of things, I need to keep Graduate Fog focussed on exposing and discussing the problems that graduates are facing. I’m afraid since I don’t get paid for my time, I have limited resources to dedicate to actually fixing all these problems – to be honest I’m hoping others will pick up these issues and run with them, as I’m only one person (working for free – oh the irony!) and as much as I’d love to, I just can’t do it all!
Luckily, in this case, Intern Aware have picked up the issue (in fact, they existed long before Graduate Fog) and they do a really good job of campaigning for interns so do get in touch with them. The founders are called Gus and Ben.
PS Old codgers are more than welcome on Graduate Fog – especially when they support the rights of young workers…! Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Hi Tanya
Appreciate you coming back so quickly and positively. Will follow up with Internaware. Will keep you posted on progress. By the way I had a relation who went to Caterham School with Dimitri de Grunwald – not Tolly – I think . Relation?
Kind regards
Alan Sealy
Ha, yes Tolly was my grandfather, Dimitri was his brother – my great uncle. Goodness me, you are ancient! ; ) But very welcome here x
Inspiring Interns found me my current internship.
Hi Tanya
Have followed up with Internaware. Tried to send you a copy via tanya@graduatefog but it didn’t work. Can I email you directly?
All the best
Alan Sealy