DO YOU MIND HOW THIS WEBSITE MAKES MONEY?
A message from this website’s founder, Tanya de Grunwald…
Graduate Fog’s principles are important to us – but keeping this website going is becoming increasingly demanding and it needs to make some money! My question is, do you mind how?
On Friday, questions were raised about how this website is funded – and to what lengths Graduate Fog’s users expect us to go to when following our principles, in particular when it comes to working with sponsors or advertisers who use unpaid interns, or who promote unpaid internships for others.
As you may be aware, all the work I have put into this website since its launch in April 2010 has been completely unpaid. I have done it because I have a weird obsession with graduate unemployment and all the issues surrounding it. But I have also been up-front from the start that I do hope to make money from this website one day, because I think what we have built – that’s me and you, the users – is really exciting. And as much as I love this subject, I simply can’t keep investing all this time without getting something back.
I am not yet sure how that is going to work – but I hope it will not be long before I can start making some proper money from sponsorship. I also think the job board will work, when I have the time (and money) to invest on scaling it up.
So far, I have been happy to promise that I will not work with sponsors (or recruiters) who use unpaid interns. Despite the fact that Graduate Fog is becoming increasingly demanding to run (as it becomes more successful, and we run big campaigns like Pay Your Interns) I am still happy to keep that promise, and have no plans to change it. Unpaid internships are one of Graduate Fog’s core issues, and it is important to me that anybody who wishes to put their brand in front of you, the users, shares our values*.
However, I am also a realist – and, as we all know, the spread of unpaid internships is completely out of control. As a result, it is extremely difficult for me to find sponsors and advertisers who are completely ‘clean’ when it comes to this issue. So I need to ask you how important it is to you that I only accept money from those who are whiter-than-white, or if there is any room for shades of grey.
Please tell me how you would feel about me accepting sponsorship money or job ads from:
– Employers which have used unpaid interns in the past, but don’t anymore
– Job boards which advertised unpaid internships in the past, but don’t anymore
– Job boards which don’t use unpaid interns themselves but do advertise them for others
– Job boards which advertise unpaid internships in the private sector (illegal) but do advertise those in the charity sector (legal)
– Or perhaps you don’t care who advertises on Graduate Fog, as long as their money helps to keep the website going?
Also, should there be a lower limit for salaries for jobs on the Graduate Fog job board – or is anything above the National Minimum Wage okay?
This is your opportunity to tell me what you think so that I can continue to run Graduate Fog in line with our core values. Please take it – or forever hold your peace!
Thanks for supporting the site,
Tanya
*Before I accept a job ad or a banner ad, I will always ask the company to tell me whether they use unpaid interns. If they say they do not, I will go ahead and work with them. I hope you understand that I cannot personally verify whether they are telling the truth or not. But if you know spot an ad on here for someone you know uses unpaid interns, please tell me and I will reassess the situation.
This doesn’t affect me personally as I’m in my late 20s (argh) and openings in my sector, paid or unpaid, would be unlikely to be advertised on a graduate job board in any case. However, in your position the two things I’d weigh up when making a decision are these. Firstly, of the job boards that publish unpaid intern vacancies, what percentage of vacancies are they relative to paid jobs? (I remember the sinking feeling of going to a jobs board and finding 2/3rds of vacancies were unpaid, and that was in ’05-’07). Secondly, are unpaid internships clearly flagged as such? (ie they don’t just coyly say: “This is an unpaid position” at the end of a 2-para enticing blurb). I know Gorkana now lists internships in a separate category. I don’t think the lower limit for salaries is necessary given the rate of unemployment (provided it pays more than JSA, of course).
Thanks for your thoughts Maxine.
That’s interesting that you don’t see this as binary / black & white – ie that you feel some job boards are perhaps ‘worse’ than others, depending on what % of the opportunities offered are unpaid vs paid…?
Anyone else want to give their opinion? If nobody else comments then prepare to see ads for Quintessentially, Harrods and Urban Outfitters plastered all over GF any day now… ; )
It is essential to the legitimacy of Graduate Fog to not accept any money from those who currently benefit from unpaid interns (even job boards).
There doesn’t seem to be a problem accepting business from those who may have benefited in the past but do not now.
Some other ideas:
I think it would be reasonable, if you haven’t already, to form a charity arm that would allow you to accept donations and grants for specific campaigns.
I also think you should consider taking on volunteers (in their true sense) to help keep some things running so that you can focus on promotion and financing.
Have you thought about doing a university lecture tour? This would be very attractive to sponsors and you would be picking up more users along the way…again building value for sponsors.
Also, Ethical Consumer and Profit for Ethics might be able to help you target ethically minded businesses where unpaid interns would be less likely.
I can see why you’d want to charge money, it always happens to activist websites, worthy principled stances are compromised when long term realities hit.
I think you have a real problem with Pay Your Interns, perhaps you shouldn’t have embarked on it as it clearly was the tipping point that made you think about charging. I think your blog was fine as it was and there was/ is no need to go charging off on this list gathering exercise. Naming and shaming them on your own little corner of the internet wont make them change, higher profile Guardian articles might (well done). But the reality is they are big and only pay attention when hit with the big stick of the law. You really must keep targeting HMRC, the Low Pay Commission, the TUC and BIS.
BTW here is the link to report an unpaid internship file:///C:/Users/Mark/Desktop/HM%20Revenue%20&%20Customs%20National%20Minimum%20Wage%20-%20Making%20a%20complaint%20online.htm
Well done and keep the blog up (but scale back on Pay your Interns – its unnecessary).
You could try approaching the TUC, they have funds and might well be interested.
You shouldn’t endorse companies that indirectly endorse unpaid internships by advertising them.
I have no objections if you make money from GF. I would stop visiting only if the content became watered-down or bland (when blogs get to the money stage they often get boring as they go for mass appeal).
No unpaid internships should be advertised here. A company that has or has used unpaid internships can advertise a paid job here only. Only minimum wage jobs (arg!) and above should be advertised. No ‘apprenticeships’ and their £2.50 hourly rate. Please no charity unpaid internships, which although legal are still exploitative in my mind.
So.. as long as the individual job pays I think you should take money for advertising it to your readers. We all need to live; this I understand.
I don’t see why the campaign can’t continue as is. I don’t see a conflict of interest. As sites get big the hosting gets expensive.
Rather than making a charity-arm as Charlene has suggested I think a good idea would be to start selling stuff here in an online shop. For example, how about some e-books related to graduate careers? Or how about live webinars where you lecture on aspects of graduate careers??? If you started selling merchandise I would also buy to show my support. I think it’s worth considering because other than with advertising it can be hard to make money from blogging and campaigning.
Please keep up the site – I visit everyday even though I’m not really in the ‘graduate’ box anymore… And if you simply can’t make money from GF when you have exhausted all avenues just blog once in a while for fun!
With my “business” hat on, I’d agree with Charlene you must avoid promoting any organsation that doesn’t pay today’s interns at least NMW. If you compromised on this point, you’d sacrifice GF’s raison d’etre in the same way Royal Mail did when it tried to charge a PREMIUM rate for delivering mail before midday.
I’d also say (again!!), you need to limit your role on the Pay Your Interns campaign to that of facilitating and publicising the activities of others with more time for it (eg current students serving as NUS reps). You and the campaign will run out of steam if you try to run it as a “one woman” show.
(to be continued)
(continued)
With my “career counselling” hat on, I wonder whether you’d make a better living by selling your services to commercial companies (eg banks wanting to keep high value customers) in need of a professional to run their site blogging campaigns for them?
GF serves as a good example of your effectiveness in such a role. GF is consistently high in Google’s pages for its key words and has built up a community around it. You’ve done all this on a shoestring budget.
You could keep GF going and continue to write articles and books on career development as interesting sidelines to your main “job”.
If it is a choice between a site where you accept money from companies that may use unpaid interns and no site at all, I’d rather you took the money!
Stay, you make a real difference, think of this as your charity donation!
Thanks all – there is some fantastic feedback here – thanks for all your ideas!
How would you feel about this website being sponsored by a job board that advertises mainly paid jobs, but also a few (unpaid) charity internships? I have turned down a few offers from various companies lately but that is the only one that’s really made me think about where to draw the line re our principles / ethics.
I have no problem turning down sponsorship from companies that use unpaid interns themselves, or websites which promote unpaid internships at private companies. However, it suddenly seems a bit crazy to turn down money that will help keep the site going, especially when the company in question isn’t even doing the internships – and even the people who (their clients) are aren’t breaking the law! After all, even companies that don’t use unpaid interns themselves will have suppliers who use unpaid interns… So most companies will be at least indirectly benefiting from the work of unpaid interns in some way. The question is, where do I draw the line?
That’s what I mean by a grey area. What are your thoughts?
@ Peter
Pay Your Interns has already proved to be more effective than it might seem. Put “River Island internships” into Google and you’ll see we come up on the first page. Ditto Quintessentially. That’s pretty embarrassing for these companies – and it’s happening because Graduate Fog’s content has a really high value in Google’s eyes, as it’s been linked to so much from high-ranking websites like the Guardian. I’m leveraging our Google power to cause maximum embarrassment to these brands, which I think is important.
You’re right about pressuring the government / HMRC / BIS to do more – and I have just finished a lengthy submission to the Low Pay Commission, so don’t think I’m not doing that stuff too. I am also working on a project with the TUC, who have been extremely supportive. But these aspects of this are a long process – and I wanted to do something really provocative in the meantime, to attract attention to our cause. It’s working – we have already had coverage in the Telegraph, don’t forget. I and the other interns’ rights groups are in frequent communication and have agreed that as far as this debate is concerned there is a place for both the ‘carrot’ and the ‘stick’. Pay Your Interns is very much the stick!
Plus, I know it’s been a bit slow to get going, but we are now getting some really good responses back from some of the companies we’ve approached, which I’ll be announcing in the coming days and weeks. So can I ask that you have a little faith?!
@RedHead
I agree – but what about a job board that advertises paid jobs and unpaid internships within charities (but not unpaid internships in private companies)?
@Joddle
Don’t worry, there is no danger of Graduate Fog becoming watered-down or bland!
And that’s a good idea re an online shop – and I’ve been thinking about doing an e-book. Do you think people would buy it though? How much would they spend? I don’t want it to look like I’ve only set the site up to flog them stuff!
I’m not panicking about money or planning to closing the site any time soon, I just wanted to explore the ‘grey area’ with sponsors etc, to help me make a decision about suitable companies to work with. Because as much fun as it is running GF, I do need to build a long-term plan about which direction we’re going in…
@Charlene
Some good ideas – thanks!
Getting a bit fed up of you asking us for our views, only to find you’ve already made your mind up. “That’s pretty embarrassing for these companies” – err no, its not, not one of them have reversed their decision. They can live with it until forced otherwise.
Someone else said scale back your PYI activity. Please listen or we’ll stop responding to you.
I don’t think you should ditch/scale back ‘Pay Your Interns’. I may be biased, but it’s what got me interested in Graduate Fog. Paid internships are your unique selling point.
‘- Employers which have used unpaid interns in the past, but don’t anymore’ Yes.
‘- Job boards which advertised unpaid internships in the past, but don’t anymore’ Yes.
‘- Job boards which don’t use unpaid interns themselves but do advertise them for others’ No.
‘- Job boards which advertise unpaid internships in the private sector (illegal) but do advertise those in the charity sector (legal)’ No. I have issues charity internships, which violate the spirit of volunteering by promoting the CV Cold War. They often mirror unpaid private sector internships by being primarily about saving on labour costs, and thus typically requiring more commitment of time and effort than volunteering ordinarily ought to. If you could narrow it down to advertisements for truly voluntary charitable positions that might be okay, but you’d have to research and define good volunteering practice re hours and role etc. E.g. It’s not knocking your melt in 16 hours plus a week for a bus fare. It’s more likely to be a few hours or a day a week in a charity shop or at an animal shelter.
‘- Or perhaps you don’t care who advertises on Graduate Fog, as long as their money helps to keep the website going?’
I do care, though I recognise it’s problematic to decide where to draw the line. I’m glad someone else suggested a charitable arm. I think it’s worth exploring. One of the biggest costs for charities is wages, so it’d be a way of earning an income. Setting up a charity can be a laborious process though, so in the meantime you could simply solicit donations as http://newsnetscotland.com/ does. See right hand navigation bar for their donation button. You could ask them what needs doing to square legalities. Also I think it’d be worth trying to get more funding from the likes of the Joseph Rowntree Reform trust who support ‘non-charitable, political and campaigning activities’ http://www.jrrt.org.uk/index.php?page=apply-for-grant.
I like the idea of an ebook. You could self-publish, sell it for cheap, no more than a few pounds, on the Kindle. It’s a big commitment though.
Some extra thoughts:
Why I love Graduate Fog above all other graduate sites:
1. It really cares about graduates
2. It has higher order values than any other similar site I have seen
3. It encourages and empowers graduates to value themselves
4. It empowers graduates to speak out against injustices rather than just accept things because ‘that’s just how it is’
5. It is comprehensive. I.e. campaigns, advises, advertises jobs, etc.
6. It is personal. I.e. I find it easier to support Tanya and her work/campaigns than I do an impersonal website/organisation which doesn’t speak directly to me.
So, making money…
1. Merchandise/ebook is a good idea. It isn’t about flogging stuff if its something people want and are willing to buy. However, I would make it clear that the proceeds make the site/campaigns possible for those that might misconstrue your intentions. Charge the going rate! If it is relevant, useful and aims to make a difference to someone… we’ll buy it!
2. I still think a charity arm (alongside a commercial operation) will be useful. Then you have the option of getting money from:
a) Me
b) Grant giving bodies that have a youth mandate (lots!)
c) Companies with CSR programmes
d) High net individual donors
And volunteers can help you get it done. It might not be as easy as simply accepting an offer from a sponsor, however, it will all work towards removing the ‘grey area’ financiers. But I guess this option depends on how far you continue the campaign work element.
3) Grey area line drawing… apart from the point of profiting from unpaid internships I think the line needs to be drawn at the point of access.
If your users can easily gain access to unpaid internship offers through your website something seems wrong. Shouldn’t GF be the haven away from such madness?
So while it is really difficult I would turn down any sponsorship that promoted / opened access to those offers even if just a few of them.
But hey, once your users really increase perhaps those job boards will remove those ‘few’ adverts in exchange for a sponsorship partnership? Again, a reason why a promotion campaign (uni tour or something similar) would be so useful.
Well, with my webhead on, I’d say that ebooks aren’t really the way to go. (Email me if you want stats on my site visitors, sales of ebooks etc). And you already know how much % you get from hard copies of books… Selling merchandise also comes into that same category. You get tiny % and have to work harder at converting site visitors into consumers.
But I think income generation is the bigger problem here. (Because presumably, if you already made some ££ you wouldn’t be worrying about turning down all opportunities for sponsorship – dodgy or semi-dodgy.) I make most revenue on my sites through advertising, but for this there needs to be something on your site which Google (cos I use adsense – there are others) can tie in with commercial intent. So if my site is predominantly about futons, Google can find people buying advertising spaces for futons. In GF’s case, it might be difficult to find commercial intent. There are tools you can use to find out what keywords have what commercial intent – again, email me if you want some of these links.
So perhaps you have to look beyond the site to see how you can “leverage your brand” (ugh – such ugly terminology) using the GF site as proof of your abilities. I really like some of the ideas already given – corporate social responnsibility type stuff / blogging for university careers? (poacher-turned-gamekeeper style! etc). Can you consult for them, talk to students for them etc? If the universities do move to helping all undergrads become more “employable”, then this is probably where you’d fit in really well. Maybe a career of part-time blogger, part-time speaker is one that would pay for your time (and of course, your huge community of GF grads / undergrads etc would inform your knowledge and expertise).
There are all sorts of resources out there for blog monetisation, if that helps.
I think there may be merit in the idea of becoming a mass emailing portal. A biut like Avaaz http://www.avaaz.org/en/ or 38 degrees http://38degrees.org.uk/
It seems to me that some people on this site are willing to take action- if it was all done for them – ie. pre loaded template letter and all they had to do was to enter their email address and click. I believe there are bespoke online software packages that you can use to do this.
Massed numbers inundating PR offices could prove effective.
Just a thought.
@Peter
I’m really confused – it definitely looks like it was you who said:
…Is WordPress swapping names and comments around? If so I’ll investigate
As for asking for your views and when I’ve already made up my mind – if you re-read my post that I was actually only asking for your thoughts on one very specific point – which is whether I should accept sponsors who are in any way connected with promoting unpaid internships, however tenuously. While I am swaying towards accepting the offer from the sponsor that only advertises charitable internships (but not internships are private companies), if there is strong enough feeling that I shouldn’t do that, then I won’t. But ultimately this is my site, so it’s my decision. That decision might lose me a few users, but I have to weigh that up against the money, and that’s my decision.
So I wasn’t actually asking for everybody’s opinions on whether GF will ever make money, how that might happen, etc. That said, everybody’s money-making ideas are always welcome! Although guys, I’m not on the breadline – my main income is from writing features for magazines and newspapers (not about graduate stuff) and that’s doing fine, so there’s no need for us to panic just yet (although I am suddenly obsessed with slogans for GF mugs?!).
So yes, everyone’s ideas are welcome – as are their views on anything else we’re doing on GF. That said, if anyone comes out and says they think Pay Your Interns is a stupid campaign, I’m afraid I’m going to tell them why I disagree!
I’d buy a Graduate Fog mug!
As for your specific questions…
– Employers which have used unpaid interns in the past, but don’t anymore
Yes, I’d say this is fine. Everyone makes mistakes, and let’s not forget how prevalent unpaid internships were (and still are) in certain sectors, meaning the employer may have reasonably assumed it was fine. In the case of big companies, too, more enlightened people may have taken charge of hiring policy and changed the system… so why deny a ‘reformed’ company? If they’re clean on this issue now, they’re fine, in my opinion.
– Job boards which advertised unpaid internships in the past, but don’t anymore
Yes, fine, for the same reasoning as above.
– Job boards which don’t use unpaid interns themselves but do advertise them for others
Murky. I’d say no, personally, but with possible exceptions in various circumstances. It does make my heart sink a little to scan a job board and see almost nothing but unpaid internships. I agree with Maxine that the relative percentage of paid positions v unpaid makes a difference, but couldn’t put my finger on where that lies I’m afraid. I often use http://www.w4mp.org to search for jobs and it has an option “search for jobs paying NMW or above” which in my mind makes it better than a jobs board which instils false hope by turning up 3 pages of results even though I will not be able to take half of them.
– Job boards which advertise unpaid internships in the private sector (illegal) but do advertise those in the charity sector (legal)
(I’m reading this as missing a “don’t”… i.e. I’m seeing it as “Job boards which don’t advertise unpaid…” because otherwise it’s the same as the question above.) For me personally I’d think this was fine. But then again I’m not quite as ‘into’ this issue as you are Tanya (maybe I should be, but frankly I just don’t have the energy when it doesn’t impact me as much as commercial unpaid positions).
– Or perhaps you don’t care who advertises on Graduate Fog, as long as their money helps to keep the website going?
No, I do care. But I also recognise that you run this place singlehandedly and I recognise that you cannot continue to do so if it drains your own money. I think it’s possible to disapprove of something while using or ‘profiting’ from it, without being a hypocrite or refuting your own argument.
Comment to careerspartnershipUK
@CareersPartnershipUK
Thanks for your thoughts. That’s certainly my plan to galvanise as many people as possible to get involved in the campaign… I will be approaching all the student newspapers once the autumn term begins in a week or so…
However, I really do want to ‘own’ this campaign. If I’m doing all the work for it, I want people to know that Graduate Fog is the first and only place to come to read the latest on how it’s going!
And I’m sure I could make a packet running a blog for a big bank – but frankly I’m not that desperate for cash just yet… ; )
@Ayesha
Thanks so much for your detailed response – that is exactly what I was after! : )
And yes you’re right, there was a typo, I meant to ask what people thought about:
Job boards which don’t advertise unpaid internships in the private sector (illegal) but do advertise those in the charity sector (legal)
Does anyone else have strong views on that one?
@Charlene
Thanks again for your thoughts!
I particularly enjoyed your first list – One way or another I’ve been fielding quite a few insults lately so it’s nice to get a few compliments! : )
Tanya, I think the work you do is incredible but I do also think that if graduate fog is to grow as a business, you should have the right to take adverts and sponsorships as long as you don’t think it clashes with what you believe in.