NEW STATS RAISE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT EMPLOYERS REALLY KNOW ABOUT THE LAW ON INTERNSHIPS
Are bosses who employ unpaid interns evil – or ignorant? That’s the question being asked after a fascinating new research by Monster.co.uk found that the majority of employers claim to understand the law on internships – yet more than half of interns say they receive less than the minimum wage for their work.
While MP Hazel Blears said this mismatch was clear proof that many employers “knowingly breach the rules” on internships, Graduate Fog thinks there is another possibility too. Could some employers think they understand the law on internships – when actually they don’t?
The new survey by Monster.co.uk – the first UK jobs website to ban adverts for unpaid internships – found that more than more than eight in ten employers (84%) claim they understand the law on unpaid internships. Yet when they spoke to interns, four in ten (41%) said they received less than the minimum wage during their placement. (A quarter (27%) said they were paid expenses only, while 14% said they received nothing at all.)
Hazel Blears, Labour MP for Salford and Eccles – who launched a paid internship scheme in Parliament and has been leading the campaign against unpaid internships in the House of Commons – said:
“The survey confirms that internships can be really useful for both young people and employers.The fact that nearly nine out of ten employers believe interns make a positive impact on their business is telling.
“Unfortunately many of these employers remain happy to get something for nothing when it comes to paying interns and the survey shows that they knowingly breach the rules around the National Minimum Wage.
“I want to see more employers taking a stand against unpaid internships as Monster has done, but I also want to see the Government doing far more to take action against those which continue to break the law.”
Although Graduate Fog agrees that many employers do willfully break the law, we think the true picture could be more complex than Hazel assumes. Since this website launched, we have named and shamed dozens of employers caught exploiting their interns. Yet, when challenged, many swore blind they were doing nothing wrong and were even happy to confirm the facts in lengthy emails to us.
Often, they believed that because they worked unpaid at the start of their career (usually not for long), it was legally okay to ask interns to work for months unpaid. Many genuinely believed that the (perceived) value of the experience was adequate payment for the placement. Still others refused to believe that unpaid internships are illegal – simply because abuse of the law is so common. (“Everyone else is doing it,” they reasoned.)
Graduate Fog has identified what we believe to be the five core groups of employers:
a) Those who know it’s illegal not to pay their interns – but who knowingly break the law
b) Those who know it’s illegal not to pay their interns – and who stick to the law
c) Those who don’t realise it’s illegal not to pay their interns – but wouldn’t pay them even if they did
d) Those who don’t realise it’s illegal not to pay their interns – and would pay them if they did
e) Those who suspect it might be illegal not to pay their interns – but who choose not to investigate further, believing ignorance is a defence
We think it’s a fascinating subject, but we think it’s you – Graduate Fog’s readers – who are in the best position to explain what’s going on. How do you explain the gap between what employers say they understand about the law on internships – and the large number of interns who say they receive less than the minimum wage for their work? What do you think of our five groupings? What percentage do of employers do you think fall into each group? And are there other groups we haven’t thought of?
*WHY DO YOU THINK SOME EMPLOYERS DON’T PAY THEIR INTERNS?
Don’t they know the law – or do they just not care? If you’ve interned unpaid, did your employer definitely know that having you work for free was illegal? Does more need to be done to raise awareness among employers about the law on internships? If so, whose job do you think this is? Please post your comment below – thanks!
I think they’re taking advantage of the unpaid internship “grey area” people think there is (there isn’t). The ignorance, if there is any, is feigned or deliberately cultivated by avoiding mention and debate about it. Having to pay interns would costs them a lot. At the moment they get to be more productive than their budget allows. They’re not going to give up the chance to save money until it becomes more expensive not to pay them (through fines, bad publicity etc) than to pay them.
I think there is a general lack of ignorance on both sides – Both employers AND students/graduates.
There are those who know and won’t pay, or don’t know but wouldn’t pay anyway. Those people shouldn’t be in business.
However, I think there is a lot of stupidity and ignorance, because it is hard to see the wood for the trees because they’re too focused on avenues which might absolve them of liability whilst ignoring the avenues which make them liable to pay wage. For example:
“It may be 40 hours, but it’s flexible! They can work any 4 out of the 5 days in the week that they like!”
“Of course they have responsibilities and we expect them to be done. But they don’t have to”
“We pay their expenses, so that’s ok. They’re volunteers! They would learn nothing if we didn’t give them real commercial projects”
There are so many mixed messages that it’s hard to actually determine what the correct position is (Workfare – Unpaid (apparently) = okay; Sandwich placements – Unpaid (apparently) = okay; graduate internships = not okay). Ministers and MPs employing unpaid interns doesn’t help. That the majority of literature on an internet search is about AMERICAN internsihps, not UK law, doesn’t help.
Stupid / ignorant employers account for the majority of them, but why should that be an excuse? Ignorantia juris non excusat – Ignorance to the law is no excuse.
I think you’ve missed a group.
Those who confuse volunteering with internships.
Oh and being pedantic its not the “Law on internships” that they need to know, its the National Minimum Wage Act 1998. Just saying.
There isn’t much room for morality in business. As we have seen in ‘workfare’ placements, certain businesses will jump at the opportunity of having their employment costs subsidized by the taxpayer. It’s the same with many internships that are really starter jobs. Why pay someone when you don’t have to? It is only social pressure and the law that will stop the exploitation of those desperate for jobs.
I am after an entry level job where a) I get paid b) where they don’t demand years of previous experience and c) where my responsibilities extend beyond making tea. Do such things exist anymore?
I think the unpaid internship situation has just become so normal that it doesn’t even occur to many people that the situation is wrong. Plus us youngsters are constantly being told to be grateful for whatever scraps employers give us and not to complain.
Tanya — it’s not working!!! Your flagship jobsite (Monster) is carrying unpaid internships — http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Interested-in-Recruitment-Resourcer-Internship-Job-Job-North-West-London-London-UK-125583696.aspx
There are 2,500,000 unemployed and 300,000 vacancies. We are not in a position to bargain! Why pay when people are desperate enough to work for free. It is a race to the bottom.
Even more pernicious is the combined internship ‘churning’ effect. Even if you manage to find a job that doesn’t require experience, pays and actually gives you something other than making tea/photocopying/answering the phone all day you are trapped in those types of entry level jobs. Much like ‘trickle down’ theory ‘working your way up’ is proving to be something of a cruel joke.
@Jasper Well spotted! Have you alerted Monster? There is a Report this job button on every advert, for exactly this kind of thing! Let me know if they don’t remove it.
I’ve alerted Monster… And that link no longer works – looks like they have removed it!
Trouble is there are loads of them – http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Recruitment-Consultant-Internship-Trainee-Job-London-London-UK-126120849.aspx and here http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Work-Experience-Internship-Job-London-London-UK-125721565.aspx and here http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Graduate-Business-Internship-Job-London-London-UK-126063877.aspx
Not much much of a “victory” here if they, and others, are just carrying on as before, just taking down specific posts, if they are noticed!!
Just put “Intership” in their main search box and you’ll quickly see what I mean.
Seems to me that Monster are happy to grab a headline without really doing what they are saying…
More and more unpaid Monster jobs:
KLB GROUP: http://jobview.monster.co.uk/6-MONTH-INTERNSHIP-%e2%80%93-COST-CONSULTANCY-COMMERCIAL-SALES-PROJECT-SUPPORT-Job-London-London-125973734.aspx
Ortolan Group: http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Graduate-Internship-Research-Assistant-Job-London-London-125772644.aspx (less than the legal minimum)
Paid? http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Great-Internship-Opportunity-Job-London-London-125341187.aspx
Paid? http://jobview.monster.co.uk/EMEA-Email-Operations-Intern-Job-Staines-Home-Counties-125339672.aspx
Paid? http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Graphic-Design-Intern-Temporary-6-Months-Job-London-London-125758060.aspx
Paid? http://jobview.monster.co.uk/German-Speaking-Interns-Required-Job-London-London-126186597.aspx
Paid? http://jobview.monster.co.uk/Interns-Required-Job-London-London-125228972.aspx
Tanya, Monster are not remotely treating this seriously. They are still advertising unpaid positions and doing absolutely nothing about it. They need to be proactive or lose all credibility.
Hi Jasper and Mary,
Thanks for bringing these roles to our attention. Rest assured we remain 100% committed to removing adverts for unpaid internships from Monster.co.uk. We have removed these postings from our site and continue to educate employers to what is legally required from them. Please continue to report any suspicious postings using the ‘Report this job’ button that you will find on every job posting on Monster.
Thanks again,
Monster UK
The answer is simple. Its capitalism — it is an immoral corrupt system run by the greed of citizens, of a worker to gain higher salary, or of a business man to gain higher profit. Regardless of who you are or where you come from, everybody wants something (the hunter and gatherer gene). The problem with this system of self-greed is that it works. For example, why do people want a university education? To get a higher paid job and better standard of living (greed). The university is willing to provide you this education for a profit (greed) because the person who is giving you that education wants your money to use it to buy something they want (greed).
You guys have seen the “The Hunger Games,” right? This is what life is, a game of monopoly between the “haves and the have nots”. In other words, the game starts off with many small businesses competing with each other, trying to produce the best good at the lowest price, until there is only one company left standing. However, like any game there are rules that is where our Government comes in (big brother). They make deals with big corporations by promising to reduce their taxes or pay them subsidies so they will have an incentive (greed) to create jobs. But that’s just fiction, right? Your loving parents and grandparents would never screw up their world and then throw you kids under the bus…or would they? This is why companies are hiring interns and are stating to the press that they are volunteers. So they do not have to pay them minimum wage, even though, they know some of these people are working full-time (greed).
This has been happening since biblical times e.g. the collapse of the Roman Empire. An entire nation was wiped out over and over again because of capitalism. Nowadays, this is why we have great depressions every 30 to 40 years. It is built into the system. So, here is my advice if you want to survive this battle royal. You must become competitive and let nothing stop you from pursuing your dreams. Do whatever it takes to win!!! If your employer is not paying you minimum wage or offering you a job; then create your own job or move countries where someone will hire you. You must understand, this is the fight of your life. So keep fighting until you get what you want!!!
The answer is simple. Its capitalism — it is an immoral corrupt system run by the greed of citizens, of a worker to gain higher salary, or of a business man to gain higher profit. Regardless of who you are or where you come from, everybody wants something (the hunter and gatherer gene).
The problem with this system of self-greed is that it works. For example, why do people want a university education? To get a higher paid job and better standard of living (greed). The university is willing to provide you this education for a profit (greed) because the person who is giving you that education wants your money to use it to buy something they want (greed).
You guys have seen the “The Hunger Games,” right? This is what life is, a game of monopoly between the “haves and the have nots”. In other words, the game starts off with many small businesses competing with each other, trying to produce the best good at the lowest price, until there is only one company left standing. However, like any game there are rules that is where our Government comes in (big brother). They make deals with big corporations by promising to reduce their taxes or pay them subsidies so they will have an incentive (greed) to create jobs.
But that’s just fiction, right? Your loving parents and grandparents would never screw up their world and then throw you kids under the bus…or would they? This is why companies are hiring interns and are stating to the press that they are volunteers. So they do not have to pay them minimum wage, even though, they know some of these people are working full-time (greed).
This has been happening since biblical times e.g. the collapse of the Roman Empire. An entire nation was wiped out over and over again because of capitalism. Nowadays, this is why we have great depressions every 30 to 40 years. It is built into the system.
So, here is my advice if you want to survive this battle royal. You must become competitive and let nothing stop you from pursuing your dreams. Do whatever it takes to win!!! If your employer is not paying you minimum wage or offering you a job; then create your own job or move countries where someone will hire you. You must understand, this is the fight of your life. So keep fighting until you get what you want!!!
Chris, you have described what is. On this site we agitate to secure what should be.
It’s all very well saying “this is the system, deal with it under this system”, what needs to be done is for people to challenge the system itself ie the failure of companies to pay the minimum wage where it is due.
The answer is not to accept the way things are and battle away under that illegality; it is to agitate and campaign for companies to do the right thing, as they are expected to do.
@MaryB
Its all good to preach your ideals of what should be. However, you must understand if you truly want to change the system you must become one of the elite in this society and win this “Man-made Monopoly” game. Only then will have the resources and contacts to put your ideals into fuition. It is as simple as that.
I’m not sure any of the above makes any sense. Do you have a specific point?
I’ve seen a few posts from Chris Wells about being competitive and stuff. The thing is though, when you have competition, you have winners and losers. Even if everybody adopted this mentality, there would still be people who lose out to those more fortunate. Plus, if society is corrupt and we just go along with it, are we not just contributing to what’s wrong with this world?
So, in short, I agree with MaryB. This whole “That’s life, I’m afraid” attitude is the reason why nothing ever gets better.
Unfortunetly, man has created these rules of competition. I have never seen a society in history that does not have competition. Whether we like it or not we are force to compete with each other for resources. It has been this way for 1000s of years.
If you choose to sit there no employer is going to knock your door and give you a job. This is why you must compete or else some other person will get the job and not you.
Ultimately, the reason why your life is so hard starts back in your country between 1700s – 1800s when Waltor Rothchild brought the entire british economy for pennies through the stock market. He sent his sons to establish reserve banks in different countries to control the economies money supply and enslave the people through debt and inflation.
With the help of JP Morgan, Rockefellars, and the government he was able control the entire world. MaryB and anonymous grad,if truely want to change your country you must all stand up and get rid off the reserve bank of england and other banks. That is the only way to fix your country and make it prosper.
I know some people do not like to hear what I have to say, however, I am a realist not a dreamer. Check out what I am saying on ‘google’ and you will find out what I am saying is correct.
Well that’s different, if nothing else – the way to solve the problem of unpaid internships is to get rid of banks!
Competition can be a very fine thing, it is unfair competition that is the issue here. And, by seeking to address the problem of illegal unpaid work, no-one is just “sitting there” and waiting for an employer to offer a job, quite the opposite. A level playing field where rich and poor can compete with the equality of opportunity seems like a worthwhile aim, and its one which many people nowadays see as desirable in a society and economy best equipped to succeed.
Thanks for the google suggestion, I’ll pass on this occasion.
Unpaid internships, underemployment, over inflated house prices are symptoms of a very deep problem that has had no time heal. The only thing that is keeping your country on life support is the reserve banks printing money. Ironically, you find out one day that the reserve bank caused the problem in the first place.
You only need to look at Greek history in athens or Germany after world war one to find out what is going to happen to your country. Your country is on a bullet train at full speed,with no brakes, that is destine to crash. Every time you have a fiat currency it has a 100% failure rate. Every problem in your country e.g. poverty, underemployment, inflated house prices and tuition can be traced back to its core the reserve bank. So yes getting rid of the reserve bank and start trading with real money backed by gold will allow the free market recover. Only then will your country prosper.
Whats sad is the middle and working class are going to be wiped out. In the next 5 to 10 years we are going to experience our first Global Depresson the price we must all pay for our parents and grand parents who screwed our generation over. The day will come when a newspaper will cost a million dollars. Then people will finally wake up and realise how useless their money is. The thing I hate the most is when I am right.
The world is going to end up Greece, except their will be no one to bail us out. The good news is our country will have a choice to either have real money backed by gold or another fiat currency that will destroy our great grand chrildren. The choice is yours…