LAWYERS AND RESEARCHERS BAN US FROM PRESENTING THE BASIC FACTS
Graduate Fog’s founder Tanya de Grunwald was dropped hours before a planned TV appearance on Friday’s BBC Breakfast – after she refused producers’ requests to tell viewers that unpaid internships can be a really good thing.
If you saw the segment – which aired around 7.45am – you probably noticed that the standard was weirdly poor. We can reveal that this was the result of an eleventh-hour scramble in which Breakfast’s producers and lawyers appeared to lose their nerve on reporting the basic facts about the law on unpaid internships. At one point, Graduate Fog’s founder Tanya de Grunwald was asked to avoid all mention of the fact that many unpaid internships are illegal, and to tell viewers that unpaid internships are actually a good thing (yes, seriously). Just a few hours before the show aired – when Tanya was already on her way to the BBC’s Salford studios (near Manchester) – a BBC producer wrote in an email:
“Also we cannot infer that… any employer is breaking the law by not paying interns — this has been absolutely specified by the BBC duty lawyer. We are asking you to comment on the wider point about whether internships should routinely be paid regardless of current law.”
When Tanya explained that many employers ARE breaking the law by not paying their interns, and it’s important to be clear to viewers about that, the producer insisted that she had been advised by the BBC’s duty lawyer that this “claim” was only an “opinion”. Tanya explained the minimum wage law in detail, but the producer was unconvinced.
Instead, she asked that Tanya stuck to discussing the “general” issue of internships – and say something about how unpaid internships can be a really good thing, as they add some great experience to a young person’s CV. Tanya refused.
An hour later – 10 minutes before Tanya’s train arrived in Manchester – the producer left a voicemail saying she was “terribly sorry” but the “editorial decision from on high” was that “we won’t be able to proceed with the interview as planned tomorrow morning”.
The muddle seems to have happened after the programme’s makers were unable to make up their minds about the angle of the story. The original ‘hook’ was some fascinating new stats from job website Monster.co.uk.
But in the day before the show aired, the nature of the piece changed wildly. The producers decided to interview former Miss Selfridge intern Emily Wong. Then Arcadia boss Sir Philip Green rang the programme himself to give a statement about his company’s policy on internships. Monster’s spokesperson was in, then she was out. Tanya was lined up, and then dropped. The final coverage was a big mess.
The presenter (who even was that guy?) fudged the facts and missed the point. There was no discussion about Monster’s new statistics, Emily was presented as an isolated whinger (“She’s been telling BBC Breakfast why she thinks interns should get paid…”) and Sir Philip Green’s statement was binned. Did anyone get the point of any of it? If so, please enlighten us below. The only value we could see was one of comedy, watching diminutive Labour MP Hazel Blears perched on what appeared to be a bar stool. (In fairness, she did a good job – but they didn’t half make her look silly).
This is not the first time that Graduate Fog has criticised the BBC for its sub-standard coverage of the issue of internships.
First, there was the dreadful BBC Breakfast interview with campaign group Internocracy’s fabulous Becky Heath, who was addressed as if she was a nine-year-old asking for a pony (rather than a young, professional woman asking for a fair wage for her work). Then when former intern Sophie Cullinane and Savvywoman founder Sarah Pennells made a storming appearance on BBC News, the presenters ended the interview by making patronising wisecracks to each other about whose turn it was to make the tea.
Like the rest of the media, the BBC has a responsibility to present the facts to its audience. Every other news provider seems to be able to get the facts right about internships, and present accurate, fair, insightful coverage. The Guardian, Telegraph, Daily Mail and Channel 4 News are particularly good. So, why does the BBC minimise and trivialise this important issue which affects hundreds of thousands of young people every year?
*SHOULD BBC JOURNALISTS TAKE INTERNSHIPS MORE SERIOUSLY?
What did you think of Friday’s show? Are you surprised that this website’s founder was banned from stating on air that many unpaid internships are illegal – and asked to say they are a good thing? Which news programmes and newspapers do you think do the best job of reporting on the issue of internships?
Are you surprised that this website’s founder was banned from stating on air that many unpaid internships are illegal — and asked to say they are a good thing?
No I’m not surprised, case law has not been made in this field yet. Although there have been several tribunals, there hasn’t been any appeals, thus no precedent has been set. So for TDG to say that “employers are breaking the law”. All that has been established is that individual employers (who have lost legal cases) have broken the law.
You can’t say an employer has broken the law unless its proven in court – that’s libelous. Furthermore it’d be wrong to generalise and say all employers are breaking the law when its only individual ones who’ve had a case against them proven and as I say no legal precedent has been set.
The lawyer is therefore right to say the claim is only an opinion.
Nice try but one has to be careful with the specifics.
What gets me is that some employers dangle the prospect of a full-time job in front of their interns to keep them unpaid for longer. It’s always a case of “we can’t afford to pay you but we really, really need you right now”. The Government should look into capping the length of unpaid internships, after which time they either need to offer a paid full-time role or let them go.
Fair point, Pete.
With that said, surely the reasonable approach would’ve been to brief Tanya accordingly on what CAN be said, and not to be so off-the-mark as to ask her instead to talk about the good unpaid internships can do.
Clearly, more a case of questionable production/editorial decision-making rather than the lawyer shutting everything down.
Ahah! Graduate Fog fan Mischa Wilmers asks whether the BBC’s own record on using unpaid interns could explain their reluctance to give viewers the facts..?
http://www.mischawilmers.com/2013/03/uncovered-bbc-accused-of-exploiting.html
So excited! Guardian media pundit Roy Greenslade has posted about story on his blog – complete with a snap of my Friday morning fry-up!
BBC Breakfast rejects guest over her views on unpaid internships
I can’t speak for the law, but it’s outrageous you should be asked to say anything that isn’t your deeply held belief. Keep fighting the good fight. (Also, they don’t know the difference between ‘infer’ and ‘imply’)
There may not be an appealed tribunal decision but if that isn’t the case, there are a lot of people (including Jo Swinson) who are pretty convinced that internships are due the minimum wage:
“If an intern is contributing to your company, has a list of duties and is working set hours then technically they should be paid the NMW”
The Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development
“If the post demands set hours and/or has a specific job description you may be deemed to be a ‘worker’ and be covered by National Minimum Wage legislation”
Working for MPs’ website, W4MP
“Most interns would legally be considered workers. There is a number of criteria that are used to determine whether or not an individual is a worker. Does the individual have set working hours? Do they have set responsibilities? If so, they are almost certainly a worker”
Simply Business website
“If you choose to take on an internship and you have set hours, deadlines, tasks and responsibilities, and you complete jobs that have been assigned to you, you would almost certainly be classed as a worker and should be paid NMW”
Heriot-Watt University Union booklet
“Under employment law, people who work set hours, do set tasks and contribute value to an organisation are “workers” and are entitled to the minimum wage of £6.19 for those over 21 and £4.98 for 18- to 20-year-olds”
Daniel Boffey, The Guardian
“I remind people that long-term unpaid internships are against the law. Sometimes we get away from that point. Anyone doing a job that involves set hours and set responsibilities is a worker and is entitled to the national minimum wage”.
Hazel Blears MP (Salford and Eccles)
“Under the national minimum wage regulations it is against the law to have someone working set hours and doing set tasks without being paid. There is an explicit link between the national minimum wage and unpaid internships”
Ian Murray MP (Edinburgh South)
“Basically, if someone is offering their time of their own free will and they can come and go as they please, they are a volunteer, but if they are required to perform specific tasks and can be disciplined if duties are not performed as agreed, they are a worker”
Jo Swinson MP (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills)
Censorship by the BBC!
If, the facts were as stated, then a valuable opportunity was missed.
Plan B would have been to have agreed to the terms of appearing, but then treat the revised terms with as much contempt as deserving, and a more potent message would have been delivered.
Thank You Tanya for standing up for us.
Given this is the BBC we’re talking about, I suppose it’s hardly surprising their lawyers wouldn’t want it to be inferred that not paying individuals meeting the legal definition of workers the minimum wage is – funily enough – illegal, regardless of how much the law goes unenforced.
I wonder if the BBC lawyers know of anyone who relies on such practices.
@Peter F:
If any employers want to sue anti-internship activists, expose all of their dodgy recruitment and internship practices in open court, and think they can convince a jury containing ordinary people that not paying people for what are very suspiciously similar to temp admin jobs is legal, then I’ll eat my hat.
Look at what happened to McDonalds’ reputation in their David v Goliath McLibel trial.
@Tanya:
The BBC lawyers are ridiculous anyway.
They have warlords and insurgents openly inciting violence against civilians interviewed on the news with no civil or criminal action taken against them.
Indeed, for the last year or two the BBC have been more-or-less openly supporting an armed rebellion against a foreign government (admittedly a tyrant), involving groups proscribed under the Terrorism Act 2000.
But having someone tell what the majority of lawyers would argue is the case about minimum wage law is too risky?
Indeed, thanks for trying Tanya, even if the Establishment is trying to make you feel like a voice in the wilderness, you’re not.
@Tanya:
“So de Grunwald ended up spending a night at Salford Media City Holiday Inn (double room fee: £109). The train ticket cost a further £79.”
I hope you managed to do some sightseeing or get something out of that wasted trip to Manchester/Salford.
But just thought that the figures above (the BBC spending £109 on Holiday Inn hotel rooms, as opposed to Travelodge, Ibis etc for guest speakers then not even having them on TV) implies they’re not exactly struggling for cash.
£188 is 30 hours’ wages (gross) on the minimum wage for those 21 or over. If the BBC can waste that sort of money, I strongly suspect they can afford to pay absolutely everyone performing any kind of work for them.
Tanya, you have my complete respect for not compromising your integrity and principles. If only the BBC had respect for integrity and truth, let alone interns who should not be exploited in order to be able to gain the experience needed to get a proper paid job. Not everyone can afford to work unpaid – this is part of why social mobility is decreasing. The whole thing is disgusting!
Thanks Caroline, that means a lot…!
Hi there,
I wouldn’t mind admitting that unpaid internship is good if it brings added value to both the company and the young graduate involved in the internship. That is, by giving a real opportunity to the graduate to learn new skills that he or she will later trade on the job market (not creating binders or making cup of tea to the Boss or attending visitors which are administrative tasks to be done by a hired staff).
Although, the real unfairness of the whole process is elsewhere. Unpaid internship gives no opportunity to people with less financial means to gain a working experience. This in the long run just contributes to creating a culture of keeping the poor in their poverty and encouraging the rich to get more richer. In addition, unpaid internship cuts out of the job market all those young talent that are from poor financial background and I doubt that this is at the advantage of the hiring company.
Unpaid is unfair as any young graduate out there will notice!!!