DID I GO TOO FAR THIS TIME?
Graduate Fog has already made a new enemy in 2011 — and we’re not even half way through January!
AND I’ve been accused of being “threatening” — when I thought I was being nice! (Perhaps I need to work on my people skills…?)
I’ve also been told:
– “There are plenty of valid reasons why unpaid internships and work experiences are a very good thing” and
– “If people aren’t prepared to work for free they needn’t apply for the unpaid internships.”
More of which shortly.
The trouble kicked off when one of Graduate Fog’s users alerted me to an ad for a six-month unpaid internship with a digital agency called the Blur Group, posted on a website called EscapeTheCity.
I’d heard of EscapeTheCity – and always liked what they were about. I understood that they help people move from jobs they don’t like in the City to jobs that they feel more passionate about, in other fields.
As regular readers know, when tipped off about unpaid internships, I normally go straight in and ask for a statement, as I’ll be blogging about it on Graduate Fog (especially with big companies). But something made me hesitate this time.
Graduate Fog has made a lot of enemies last year, and I wondered whether I should be more strategic about picking my battles in 2011.
So I sent the founders — Rob Symington and Dom Jackman — this email:
FROM: Graduate Fog
TO: Escape the City
SUBJECT: Friendly warning from Graduate Fog
Monday 10 January 2010, 15.05Hi Rob and Dom,
I’ve been a fan of your site for a while so was a bit disappointed to see that you’re currently advertising unpaid internships, like this one for Blur Group:
http://www.escapethecity.org/opportunities/15693
The unpaid internships issue is something my users feel extremely strongly about – and I have been campaigning against this practice since my website Graduate Fog launched in April. Although these internships are marketed as a positive ‘learning opportunity’ for young people, this is rarely the case – and more often than not they are a way for companies to cut their costs by ‘hiring’ a young person to do what should be a paid role, for nothing. We believe that – more often than not- unpaid internships simply exploit those who do them, and exclude those who can’t afford to do them.
This morning, one of my (furious) users brought your Blur Group ad to my attention and asked me to ‘name and shame’ you and your client on Graduate Fog, as I have done with lots of others, including Tesco, Harrods, James Caan, Sainbury’s, Comic Relief, Urban Outfitters, etc.
However, I have made a lot of enemies since Graduate Fog launched in April (!) and am careful about picking my battles. Since I’m pretty sure that you are not the bad guys, I have no plans at present to write about the unpaid internships currently advertised on your site. However, just as a courtesy I wanted to let you know that I will be keeping an eye on your site in future.
Best of luck with the site – as I say, I really do like what it’s about
Tanya
Two hours later, this arrived. EscapetheCity were clearly NOT impressed…
FROM: Escape the City
TO: Graduate Fog
SUBJECT: Re: Friendly warning from Graduate Fog
Monday 10 January 2010, 17.06Hi Tanya,
We appreciate what you’re campaigning for (paid employment for graduates). However, we don’t appreciate being threatened (which is what your email seems to be doing!) – “I will be keeping an eye on your site in future.”
The thing is – you’re taking a position on a subject that is by no means a closed debate. There are plenty of valid reasons why unpaid internships and work experiences are a very good thing.
I myself benefited hugely from unpaid work when I was an undergrad and graduate. I’m currently working on a project for a community of start-up businesses to share office space with a shared resource pool of unemployed graduates. We will be providing valuable work experience for young people who otherwise would be doing nothing. Escape the City itself has taken people on for 4-week unpaid internships which have worked extremely well for both us and the individuals – and we found 2 of our interns jobs at the end of the process.
Unpaid work experience is one way into niche areas where established entry paths are less obvious. This is part of the Escape the City concept (do something different). We understand that it’s hard to find work that makes you tick and working for free is one of the ways to do this.
So I’m afraid we actually disagree with you here in principle on this matter. I wholly support the objective of helping graduates find meaningful paid work and am involved with a number of initiatives which are aimed at helping graduates find careers that are right for them.
Escape the City lists opportunities ranging from paid executive positions and full-time roles to unpaid volunteer opportunities, paid internships, unpaid internships, connections between people with business ideas, even positions where the new team member only receives equity. The only proviso is that these are opportunities for meaningful and fulfilling work.
Blur group are offering a work placement programme. It’s a scheme they wouldn’t be able to provide if they had to pay all the people on it. Therefore, in our eyes, it is a valid offering and one that we are happy to be listing on our site. We currently have a generously paid internship on our site from RLtec (a clean tech start-up) and we will continue to offer both types on Esc.
If people aren’t prepared to work for free they needn’t apply for the unpaid internships. There are plenty of people who are thrilled to have the opportunity to learn skills in a new environment where they wouldn’t have been able to get a paid position (due to lack of skills).
We are not a bad organisation and get a huge amount of emails from our members saying how happy they are with what we stand for, what we do, and how we do it. Blur took an unpaid intern from us last year who otherwise wouldn’t have been able to transition into digital marketing. If you were asking us to stop doing something that was genuinely wrong / unethical / immoral then of course we would do so – but that is not the case.
Glad you like what we do. Thank you. However, it’s not fair to send a one-sided message like you did on a subject where the right way of doing things is far from agreed. By all means stand up for what you believe in and campaign for paid internships – but you should think twice about threatening people just because they believe in another way.
Regards,
Rob
Rob Symington – Co-Founder
EscapeTheCity
Do Something Different!
Is your blood boiling? So was mine.
Clearly this email is immensely irritating for those of us who believe that the debate is in fact ‘closed’, as in the UK we have a little thing called the Minimum Wage Law. And one of my pet hates is hearing out-of-date ‘examples’ of people whose careers got off to a flying start after doing an internship — with no regard for their poorer peers — used as ‘proof’ that the current situation with internships isn’t the HUGE problem that we all know it is.
So at this point I decided I would in fact be blogging about this after all (Sorry guys!).
So it took all the strength I could muster to send this email back to them:
TO: Escape the City
FROM: Graduate Fog
SUBJECT: Re: re: Friendly warning from Graduate Fog
Monday 10 January 2010, 17.18Sincere apologies if you felt I was threatening you – and thank you for taking the time to clarify your position on this.
Tanya
Since when I have heard nothing back.
In the couple of days since this exchange, I’ve calmed down a little (although re-reading this email again sends my heart rate soaring every time).
I realise that the gentlemen at EscapeTheCity are probably not evil to the core — more likely, they are just really badly informed when it comes to the subject of internships.
And unfortunately they are not alone.
Haven’t we ALL heard these rotten, flawed arguments used again and again to ‘justify’ the continuation (and rise) of the corrosive unpaid internships culture? Usually, this drivel comes from those who have interned themselves (because they could afford to) several years ago, and found that for them it led to paid work fairly swiftly — and they haven’t looked back.
What the EscapeTheCity boys clearly don’t ‘get’ is how lucky they were to be able to afford to work for free AND that they didn’t have to do it for very long AND that they (probably) weren’t in as much debt as you lot are, when they graduated.
As for whether my email was threatening, I’ve re-read it several times and feel pretty confident I stayed on the right side of the line — and I think my firm tone was justified, given the seriousness of what EscapeTheCity are doing. I’m also confused that somehow I’M being portrayed as the bad guy for sending them a slightly mean email — even though they’re the ones who have been advertising for an unpaid worker (for the Blur Group and several others, I might add).
Happily, Graduate Fog’s friends at the interns rights groups have backed me up — issuing the following statements this morning.
From Intern Aware:
“Escape the City miss the point in talking about people who aren’t ‘prepared to work for free’. For most graduates, this isn’t a choice: they simply cannot afford to work without an income. While their intentions may be good, by only making valuable work experience available to graduates who can work without pay, Escape the City are increasing inequality of opportunity.”From Interns Anonymous:
“We thought your email to EscapeTheCity was very polite! And they are wrong on several counts. The fact is that nowadays it is increasingly rare for unpaid internships to lead to jobs. In fact, they often replace what used to be entry level jobs. Graduates have the skills and deserve to be paid for the work that they do. We believe that unpaid work is illegal — and it is certainly unjust. It means the only people who get ahead are those that can afford to get ahead. However well-intentioned an internship or organisation may be – if the work is not paid, it entrenches inequality.”
This whole episode shows that there is a LOT more work to be done in convincing the pro-unpaid internships crowd that they urgently need to reassess their views. However much they think they are helping young people by offering (and promoting) these placements, they are in fact doing the opposite.
Oh, and it also shows that Graduate Fog is likely to make a LOT more enemies in 2011. Game on.
Interested in the original ad? It’s here:
*Did I go too far?
Was my email ‘threatening’? What do you think of EscapeTheCity’s response to my challenge about them advertising unpaid internships? What more can we do to raise awareness about why their views are so out-of-touch?
I see no threat from your part, it seems to me that your ‘keeping an eye on [their] site’ is merely an innocent statement of not completely eradicating them your website and your users.
Everyone knows how easy it is to misconstrue comments on the web.. Perhaps you just caught them on a bad day.
This is my first visit to your site (via Twitter) so I’ll definitely be keeping an eye on it in the future..
The email most definately did not sound threatening. Their very defensive response was interesting, why feel threatened, why be so defensive when you were trying to discuss the matter openly?
I really think your point on some advocates of internships being those who ‘have interned themselves (because they could afford to) several years ago, and found that for them it led to paid work fairly swiftly — and they haven’t looked back’ is very telling of what is at the heart of this debate. Not everyone can afford to work unpaid, if you are in that position, you seem to be at a distinct disadvantage.
It’s a very unfair situation, thanks for having the clarity to see the disadvantage some people are at and the balls to take on the culture of unpaid/low paid internships headlong!
Although, I did think that the email you sent sounded a bit like you were saying “take it down or I will name and shame you for exploiting graduates on my website.” That was the point really and they do need to be shown the error of their ways.
But I do think that in the response where they say they did internships themself is probably a bit outdated and narrow minded. “I myself benefited hugely from unpaid work” isn’t enough and doesn’t proove anything, only, as you say, how lucky they are.
“There are plenty of people who are thrilled to have the opportunity to learn skills in a new environment where they wouldn’t have been able to get a paid position (due to lack of skills).” This makes it seem like the companies hiring unpaid interns get nothing from it and are doing it as charity. I doubt this is the case very often. Surely if the interns have no skills whatsoever they wouldn’t be there at all, paid or unpaid.
@Chris – Welcome to Graduate Fog – and thanks for commenting on your first visit!
@Becky – I agree that these advocates can be very damaging in undermining our cause for a fairer deal for interns… But I also think that ignorance is no excuse, especially on the part of employers, who really should be thinking about this stuff. How can they ignore the young worker who comes in every day for six months, and they KNOW isn’t getting paid? And it is possible to be a former intern who is anti-internships – I’m living proof of this!
There are (small) signs things could be changing however – I was encouraged to see this post by INGMedia recently, who said they’d had their minds changed over the issue – so you see it IS possible!
http://bit.ly/hg7c5n
It just requires a bit of thought and some empathy. Perhaps my ‘threats’ (boo hoo!) will prompts some soul-searching from our friends at Escape the City? A girl can dream…
@Danielle
Was that the intended message? I don’t know what you mean…? ; )
And I agree with this. Despite the fact that people in offices KNOW that their intern is doing a proper job (it says so in the job ad!), they still seem to feel justified in not paying them because of some bizarre notion that THEY are the ones doing the INTERN the favour by allowing them to work there… Interestingly, this twisted logic only seems to apply at the bottom end of the career ladder though?!
I am SICK of reading about companies advertising unpaid internships using language like “full time commitment for serious people… to provide real input and get real experience”… That is called a JOB! If you want someone serious and committed to provide input into your business and to have a “real” experience of what it is your company does then PAY them for their time/energy/WORK!
It’s utterly infuriating that there are people out there who do not understand the absolute absurdity of advertising a vacancy for a role, being highly demanding and picky about the qualities/educational background you want to find in a successful candidate and expecting a full-time, medium to long-term commitment from them and then writing “Salary: none”. How did we get to this point, really…?! As you say Tanya, it’s only because these people were lucky enough to come from a wealthy background that they could afford to work for free. The fact remains that unpaid internships are elitist and unfair. And even if you could afford to work for free, I still fundamentally think that doing so for such an extended period of time is wrong. It’s effectively saying that the contribution being made and the time being sacrificed by the graduate is not worth ANY remuneration whatsoever, not even the minimum wage. Anyone who is worth having in your office every day, contributing their “input” to your business, is worth paying for their work, in my opinion!
Completely agree Tanya, ignorance is not an excuse! Nor is saying if you can’t afford to be an unpaid intern well then tough.
For me it’s not just interning that is a problem. Approaching companies for work experience is very difficult too. Even though you’re not asking for any payment and perhaps just a few hours/days of their time and you’re doing it because you’ve been told you haven’t enough experience, firms are just not willing to help and all too willing to criticise.
please keep on doing what you are doing, this con of unpaid internships has to end. What also get my blood boiling is the new fad of “fixed-term contracts” often for 6 months, where they get people to work for 6-months on salaries that they would get if offered a permanent contract, and are then discarded when the contract is over. They do this to save money on paying contract rates which are generally higher. The reason they are higher is that a 6-month contract may be followed by 6-months of no employment, so a contractor needs to the extra cash to put aside for the future.
@Tom – this is a very interesting point you’ve raised. I live in Italy, where a growing number of people (grads as well as people with more experience) cannot get full-time permanent contracts. You get internships, “training” contracts, renewable contracts lasting a month at a time… this may well be the next big “infamy” to hit the British workforce. Because if they can (they = business owners deciding they have to cut their costs), they will. And I can’t see the likes of a tory government stopping them.
The worst thing about this super-flexible way of working, is that it isn’t also matched by super-flexible bureaucracy, or super-flexible bank lending. So all those workers on “precarious” contracts here can’t get a mortgage, a car loan, etc.
Sorry, digressing into something else here, but I think the whole issue of how you employ staff is going to become wider than the intern issue – not that that isn’t important.
I feel that your initial email was effectively saying if you don’t rectify the posting then I will shame you on my website.
As nearing graduation myself I can totally sympathise that unpaid internships are in-cases are not an option for some people. This seems to be the point that you are missing. If people are prepared to apply and take unpaid internships then that is their decision.
I agree that some companies which can probably afford to pay an intern at least minimum wage don’t to cut costs. In this case Escape The City seem to offer jobs and opportunities you would not find elsewhere, often unique, with innovative business models which have not come to fruition yet. In these companies they may not have the available funds to pay an intern but are prepared to spend their time to give the intern vital experience in the field. There may not be a wage, but the intern is reimbursed through the experience.
@John
i didn’t think about it in quite those terms when i sent the email but yes, I was definitely hoping Escape the City would say ‘Oh okay, we didn’t realise this was such a bad look for us, we’ll definitely look into our policy here’. I felt I gave them the space to do this – but they chose not to. I certainly didn’t expect the response I got!
It’s really common to hear this sort of argument (especially from Tories! tho obviously i have no idea of your political persuasions.) i find it shocking how many people don’t realise that the number of poeple who cant’ work for free is not the MINORITY but in fact the MAJORITY!
This actually isn’t the case – strictly speaking, interns who work for free are undermining the NMW laws, just as their employer is. We have the NMW laws for several reasons. Yes, one is to protect vulnerable workers from being ripped off, but another is to place an agreed wage that we agree that wages cannot drop below. Take this away (as has been allowed to happen with internships, as the govt has failed to police this), and what you get is a ‘race to the bottom’, where everybody undercuts each other – with the result that everybody’s wages fall through the floor. With internships they have dropped so low that they are actually zero now, because experience itself has become a commodity (whereas before it was a byproduct of having a job – a PAID job). This is why the NMW is considered such an important law. Not jut because it protect individuals from employers – but because it protects individuals from the results of each others’ desperation.
While I never have a go at Foggers who do unpaid internships (because i can totally see why they do), in doing them, they are actually pulling down their own – and everybody else’s wages. I believe this will have an impact on their pay for the rest of their career. When you start on zero (for a year?) your first paid job isn’t likely to be very well paid, is it?
I’m afraid I disagree with this too, on principle. If you can’t afford an intern, you can’t have one. End of story. I’d love to have someone helping me with Graduate Fog, and i’m sure i could ‘sell’ it as an opportunity, but it’s simply not right. I don’t have the money to pay someone, so I cant’ have staff until I do. And again, your argument rests on this skewed idea that experience is a commodity in itself, which is a new idea. EVERYBODY gains ‘vital’ experience with every job they do, but they all get paid in the meantime! I just dont’ feel it’s reasonable (or fair) to expect interns to work for free, when nobody else is expected to do this!
@tom – Thanks for your encouragement! And as Clare said, we need to be looking out for all sorts of sneaky ways that employers are looking to take advantage of workers of all ages. I had no idea I was such a socialist til I realised what was happening – and how so many employees are being squeezed and manipulated by their employers – yet all these companies are continuing to announce record profits! If I think about it for too long, it makes me feel very queasy indeed…
This is my first time on this site (looking good btw!) I also found it through Twitter – have to say I completely agree that a) the unpaid internship thing is a joke, b) that unpaid internships are paying entry level jobs and c) that anyone doing a job SHOULD BE PAID FOR IT! It’s alright for all these people arranging these internships (who are in a comfy, well-paid job no doubt) to argue about the benefits – though I’m sure if they were also being unpaid and unsure of where their future with the company was leading (probably back to unemployment as is so often the case) than they too would disagree with internships. You think this company is bad though – have you seen these guys? http://www.inspiringinterns.com/ I’m guessing yes as I’m getting that you go against the internship thing – but wow. Are these people for real?! How are they still in business??
@Tanya
i didn’t think about it in quite those terms when i sent the email but yes, I was definitely hoping Escape the City would say ‘Oh okay, we didn’t realise this was such a bad look for us, we’ll definitely look into our policy here’. I felt I gave them the space to do this — but they chose not to. I certainly didn’t expect the response I got!
The response you received from Escape The City in my opinion was well balanced and took a lot of your points into consideration. Your initial email is verging on threats to commit slanderous behaviour, and if put in a school context I would go so far as to say bullying in some respects. Perhaps you should consider being more tactful if you want to actually win people over with your ‘threats’.
I quite agree that not everyone is in a position to work for free, and yes minimum wage law is extremely important in protecting the public from employers. They are not bringing down their own, if anything doing an unpaid internship and then being offered a paid position leaves more money in the pot for your starting salary.
If people are prepared to apply and take unpaid internships then that is their decision.
It is still their decision you cannot deny that fact. If they choose to shall we say ‘volunteer’ their time in exchange for experience in an industry that they are passionate about then should be allowed to do so. Are you also against community volunteering I wonder, should that be paid too?
In response to your comment about bringing down wages and a ‘race to the bottom’, this is not true. I have myself, just been offered a well paid internship and all other internships I have looked at are also well paid.
You are entirely missing the point about what sort of companies Escape the City look for and promote on their website. By all means – large companies who can afford to pay interns should pay. Small companies who do not have the funds, but do have something to offer and are willing to give their time should be not targeted by your emails.
@John
Just out of interest, what drew your attention to this article in the first place?
Tanya,
I have to say that I massively disagree with your point of view. The fact is that a lot of small start-ups, which are key to the future of the UK economy and future UK employment, simply cannot afford to take people on in the early stages. Running a small start-up myself, I speak from experience.
Given a ban on unpaid internships, a start-up would have 2 choices: 1) not take anyone on at all or 2) take them on at a paid rate for a very short period of time. My firm belief is that most would have to resort to the first option of not taking anyone on, not only because of the financial cost, but also all of the red-tape etc.
This in turn would mean that (a) applicants suffer (whether they are wealthy or not) because they are unable to gain vital skills which open career opportunities for them later in life, and (b) small startups suffer as well because they are unable to get fresh young ideas into their company at a crucial stage.
Now, do the benefits of a on unpaid internships outweigh these negative effects?! Well, you tell me, but I very much doubt it.
On a second point, I would be very interested in hearing you views on volunteering? Is this something that you would like to see banned too, simply because some people can’t afford to do volunteering? Again, I doubt it, so please let us know why not.
I value equality above almost all else, but getting rid of unpaid internships is not the way to do this. It is the governments role to redistribute wealth and encourage equality, so if you really have to spend time fighting a cause here, why don’t you try to lobby the government to subsidise internships for small start-ups. This would be the right way of going about it.
@Ralph
I think we may have to agree to differ on this one! Your argument that ‘start-ups’ somehow deserve to be able to use free labour because they may go on to provide further jobs in the future if they expand is flawed, as well as arrogant. I see no reason why the rest of the workforce should have to indulge the fantasies of ‘entrepreneurs’ whose businesses aren’t yet successful enough to pay the staff they need in order for their business to run. If you’re not paying all the staff you need for your business to work, then you’re not a proper business. Sorry.
If you think i’m being a bitch, i’d like to be clear that i would put myself in this category too! Except that’s where you and I differ – i wont’ be taking on staff until I can afford to pay them. The only possible way you could excuse your arrogance would be if you were promising your intern shares in your company in exchange for their work, so that once your company becomes massively successful, they will be rewarded for their hard work during the early years? Are you doing this and forgot to mention it? (Even then I wouldn’t support your model here, who’s to say your business (or mine!) will EVER make any serious money??)
Re volunteering, you might be interested in my post about Comic Relief? Of course i have no problem with ‘true’ volunteering. My problem is with the kind of ‘volunteering’ that is done by someone young who is doing it for their CV, rather than out of the goodness of their heart. Other members of staff at charities get paid, so why not the most junior? It’s outrageous to imply that interns are somehow greedy to ask for a wage from a big charity for which they are doing proper work, for months on end.
On your final point about who should pay for interns, I see no reason why the government should pay for this – and for the record i’m against the government’s idea that graduates should get their loans extended so that they can pay for them themselves. it’s time employers were honest about the true value they get from most interns (unless they’re work shadowing or making tea). from what I hear from GF’s users, nine times out of ten (at least!) an intern’s work IS worth at least the NMW. It’s just that companies are too tight to pay them the wage they deserve.
I thought that your original email WAS threatening – not the ‘horse’s head in a bed’ kind of threatening, but a ‘step out of line again and say goodbye to Mr Nice Guy’ kind of threatening. I think this is also fine. Threatening doesn’t necessarily mean bad – you need to threaten to stop people from stepping out of line. Hell, half of parenting is threatening!
And I completely agree with you on paid work. I was SO lucky to find paid work experience with my first PR company. As I’m sure you know, a lot of PR companies offer unpaid work experience (I remember Lewis offering a money unpaid work) as they have so many applicants and they can easily get the usual middle class kids to come in and work for free. I was one of these middle class kids but my parents weren’t supporting me after I got my degree, so I was seriously worried about getting into the career I wanted.
Luckily, even if it was MW (I think I got £150 plus expenses), I got a three month gig that turned into 4 years. But I wasn’t going to work for free – how was I going to pay rent? I find it ludicrous. And the particular thing I hate is that I bet the large companies that offer unpaid internships offer a few of them – so if there IS an entry level job at the end, it’s going to be scrapped over and their unpaid interns will be working 18 hours days for it. It’s exploitation of a high order, and it makes me sick.
Oh, and @Ralph – honestly, it’s not hard, just draw up a contract of three months works at £6 an hour. If they are putting in the time, you should be paying them. If you find after three months you can’t afford them, then the contract runs out. If you find you can’t do without their work, renew the contract. Those are your only options – otherwise, it’s 21 Century slavery.
Oops sorry – here is the link to the Comic Relief story: Should Comic Relief pay their interns?
I think as someone commented on the ESC Facebook page said ‘Anyone who is anti-opportunity in such a myopic way isn’t worth arguing with.’, so I don’t want turn this in to a huge argument as you clearly have made your mind up and are not going to change.
Having said that, I think that saying that ‘I will not take on staff until I can afford to pay them’ robs you of a good opportunity to have some fresh input, robs someone else (who would have made their OWN choice to work for you) of a potential job and whole new skillset, and above all adds absolutely nothing to society as a whole.
In fact, all that is achieved by removing the right for companies to take on unpaid interns, is that you remove the opportunity for people to choose to better themselves.
And if you truly believe that companies that do not pay all the staff that they need for their business means they are not proper businesses (i.e. all of the businesses you have made ‘enemies’ against (Tescos, Harrods etc.), who you mention above, and who I assume offer unpaid internships?), then you are living in dreamland. Do you really mean that? What exactly would you define as a proper business then?
What I still have not seen you answer anywhere, is what benefit does society get from removing the opportunity for people to CHOOSE to work unpaid for a company who CHOOSES to offer them an unpaid job, during which they will learn a whole new skillset which will benefit them in later life??
@Lizzie To compare internships to slavery really is ridiculous… as many have pointed out, the big difference between ‘slavery’ as you call it, and ‘internships’ is that a) interns CHOOSE to take on this work (I don’t remember hearing about slaves all fighting to see who could be first on the slave boats), and b) both parties and society as a whole benefit – again, slavery was slightly more one-sided than an unpaid internship don’t you think?
Came across this in today’s Guardian feature on vacation work experience for wanna-be lawyers:-
“The NCWE takes the view that students who make a contribution to the organisation where they are undertaking work experience should be paid at least the national minimum wage. But generally it is only the corporate law firms that follow this rule.
City outfit Norton Rose, for example, pays its students £250 per week. “We expect maximum engagement from vacation scheme students so it seems fair that we remunerate them,” says the firm’s head of recruitment Sarah Kelly.”
I wanted to publicise Norton Rose because they’re taking a principled stand on graduate employment. The more positive publicity employers get for behaving well, the more likely it is that the bad ones will be shamed into better behaviour!
I’m ashamed to say I hadn’t known there was a National Council for Work Experience (NCWE). All power to their collective elbows anyway.
@Ralph
A significant problem with unpaid internships is that they tend to disadvantage those from poorer backgrounds. If you can get help from the Bank of Mum and Dad then I am sure an unpaid internship would look like a good career starter; but the practice discriminates. Indeed, you stated in your first post that it is up to governments to redistribute wealth. Well, by enforcing the existing legislation, then it should allow all people from any background to pursue an internship.
Secondly, I do wonder whether opting for unpaid internships rather than committing to hiring somebody could indirectly act as tax avoidance. After all, if there is no money changing hands, then the government has nothing to collect. The work is still being done, but because it is an internship, then no income tax or national insurance will be collected.
Furthermore, in response to Ben’s point that it is ultimately an individual’s choice to pursue unpaid work, I would agree; it is their choice. However, given the current economic state of affairs, recruiters hold all the cards. If the majority of entry level roles are unpaid, then it is not as if I have much of a choice anyway.
Sensationalists of the world unite! Ignoring the red herring of whether your email to ESC was threatening (it was), the marriage between some of the contentions in this post and reality has irretrievably broken down.
If you quash/criminalise internships, what about the massive loss of opportunity? You then create a huge vacuum where it is full time employment or nothing – that is going to have the severest impact on your readership – recent graduates!
Any attempt to try and make this a class issue is simply smoke and mirrors. Slavery? You are forgetting in all of this the vital element of consent – people are happy or at least willing to do it.
I am certainly in favour of regulation – there should be a binding job description (so its not 3 months of tea making) and references must be given. If you ensure the experience is valuable, then this is payment in kind. I think travel expenses should be an absolute must.
Im afraid your stance on this is nothing more than a poorly conceived sound-bite that would do more harm than good.
@Ralph
I agree with what David says on the reasons why unpaid internships are more harmful than they initially appear to be, since they unfairly exclude those who may be just as well-qualified and keen (or more so) but who can’t afford to work for free. Do you really think that’s fair?
As I said to John in my comments yesterday, I never have a go at anybody who takes an unpaid internship – I can absolutely see why so many people do – as it looks like your only / best route into getting paid work. My point is that we need to change the system so that this ISN’T the case.
On your point about it being everybody’s individual choice as to whether they do an unpaid internship, actually the law disagrees. As I said to John:
As for your confusion over whether i was saying Tesco etc are proper businesses, of course they are – and they should definitely pay their interns – we all know they can more than afford to!
My point about ‘proper’ businesses was in reference to you seemingly implying that start-ups have some kind of special right to use unpaid interns – which i completely disagree with. As people running small as-yet-unprofitable enterprises, we do NOT have the right to abuse the NMW laws – or take advantage of young workers’ desperation – while we get ourselves up and running and profitable.
I have not lost one SECOND’s sleep about the fact that i’m ‘denying’ someone vital experience by not taking on an unpaid intern myself! In fact, I find this logic downright bizarre!!
But genuinely, thank you for commenting and sharing your views, I’m absolutely up for having good discussion on Graduate Fog – including disagreement – that’s what this site is all about!
Likewise,
@John
I think we’re going to have to agree to differ too! Sorry but i’m just not getting why any company of any size has the right to reap the benefits of unpaid, often skilled, labour of young, desperate workers!
@Iain – thanks for commenting.
Says who? Why not treat interns like temps? ie short contacts of paid work. No?
Err, how on earth do you figure this? Wealthier young people get ahead, poorer ones with the same (or better) qualifications don’t. Sounds like a class thing to me…?
Of course I do not want to see opportunities decrease. And of course I know there’s a risk of that happening if we get tough on those who exploit their interns – i have thought long and hard about this, see this post back in August: Seven big brands face unpaid intern inquiry
But i do want to make sure that the opportunities that are out there are fair and non-exploitative (ie paid) and open to all (including those who can’t afford to work for free). What’s the point of having zillions of unpaid internships – and only a small number of paid jobs around? It isn’t necessarily the case that unpaid internships lead to paid work – nowadays, it’s more likely that it will simply lead to another unpaid internship… If the majority of unpaid interns are doing work that is as valuable as I think it is, those companies will simply not be able to do without them, and they’ll have to start paying them.
@Ralph
“What I still have not seen you answer anywhere, is what benefit does society get from removing the opportunity for people to CHOOSE to work unpaid for a company who CHOOSES to offer them an unpaid job, during which they will learn a whole new skillset which will benefit them in later life??”
Society (i.e. thinking beyond the minority who can actually afford to work unpaid) benefits as a whole because, by “removing the opportunity for people to choose work unpaid,” you are giving more opportunity to all those who can’t.
I accept that this is a difficult concept to understand if you have never been in a situation where opportunity is restricted due to financial means rather than talent/skills. You talk about being anti-opportunity, but surely having such a huge barrier to entry into the workplace, such as ‘no wage’, reduces opportunity for the majority who do not have spare money to burn away while they ‘develop skills.’
@Iain
Without wanting to sound patronising, you have completely missed the point.
“If you quash/criminalise internships, what about the massive loss of opportunity? You then create a huge vacuum where it is full time employment or nothing — that is going to have the severest impact on your readership — recent graduates!”
Nobody is suggesting that you get rid of internships (or work experience for that matter), the argument is about regulating UNPAID internships.
@All
Just a thought about this ‘threatening’ thing… I was only implying that I would consider reporting on the fact that Escape the City are doing somehting that they ARE actually doing! (ie recruiting unpaid interns). My point is that if you’re doing something publicly, I’m not sure you can claim that a journalist is ‘threatening’ you by saying they might write about it??
@ John & Ralph
Volunteering is extremely different to an internship. Volunteering is something you do to help the community and people less fortunate than you. Charitable Organisations where a person is doing it for a reason of non-financial gain is perfectly able to “work” without getting paid. I voluteered at a special needs school, not because I wanted money but because as a person with a disabled sibling, it was an issue I felt strongly about.
Ralph, are you a charity? No you are a company and as such you should pay your interns if you choose to take them on. Graduates add value to a company not take away from it. If anything they add more dynamic and fresh views to a company.
As a 2009 Graduate I found coming into the market extremely tough as I did not live in London and I could not afford to work for free. I was lucky as I was took on fulltime by a small start up company who paid me a fair wage plus commission. The fact is he was a lot younger and therefore felt it was right that I was paid and he help me gain a lot of experience and valuable that I then used to get a job at a big Multi-national company.
It proves that yes start ups can pay graduates, I would say less than someone with experience, I learnt on the job and found that being thrown in at the deep end made me learn much faster. You do not give us the credit we are due. We are not small children with no common sense who need to be molly-coddled and looked after. We need to be pushed in the right direction and given encouragement.
Try it and you might be surprised…
For me, one of the biggest problems with lengthy unpaid internships is that it amounts to a large chunk of time away from job-hunting. I was turned away from an unpaid internship (expenses alone, which they told me was ‘cash in hand’ as if this was a selling point for me and not them – I’m not stupid and I know that they were just avoiding tax)because I explained that I could not commit to the 6 months they were pushing for, because it was simply not financically possible for me, and I couldn’t take that much time away from my hunt for paid work.
Companies such as that one, which I’m choosing not to name here, insisted on total commitment to the full 6 months, and admitted that they were taking on the other girl they interviewed PURELY because she was happy to commit to the 6 months (I said I could commit to 4 months, maximum, initially). In the interview, I had tried to explain my point of view, in that 6 months is a long time to take away from the job hunt, given that after six months I would likely be cast aside in lieu of another unpaid internship. They looked at me blankly, and said that they do ‘try’ to offer jobs to their interns after 6 months.
Even if this turned out to be the case, it is not a selling point. It is clear to me that certain companies know they want to hire graduates, but want to give them a test run in the CHEAPEST possible way. They figure they can squeeze out 6 months of cheap labour out of them before giving in and offering them a contract, and which point the grad is supposed to be GRATEFUL. What IS this, and how can people say this is okay?
Heh. My view is that if your main pickle with my post is semantic, ie the hyperbole of slavery, then really, you probably don’t have much of an argument against the actual argument. Unpaid work is taking advantage of people who need to pay rent and buy food, in the dangling carrot promise of paid work at some point. It discriminates against people who can’t afford to do that but who need the experience, and more to the point, it’s plain unfair.
Tanya, can I suggest 1 thing, which would help back all of this up:
– Survey a sample of companies offering unpaid internships and ask them whether they would have offered an internship at all had they legally been obliged to pay NMW.
Whilst I don’t want to assume anything, my guess is that (if you were able to gather accurate responses, which is debatable admittedly), the responses would overwhelmingly be ‘No, I wouldn’t have offered an internship’.
I don’t disagree necessarily with the fact that unpaid internships discrimate, but unfortunately as with a lot of these things, you have to look at what the alternatives are i.e. would a removal of unpaid internships overall benefit society more?
If you were able to prove that the benefit of lesser discrimination outweighed the loss of 1000’s of internships and employment opportunities for young graduates (and associated increased skills), then we would all agree – let’s pay everyone NMW.
@Ben – the same applies – I’d love to think that ‘you would be giving more opportunity to those who can’t afford it’, by getting rid of unpaid internships, but this is extremely idealistic and not true. A lot of companies (although admittedly not all), would simply NOT EMPLOY ANYONE, so you would simply be removing opportunity from everyone, rather than giving it to someone else. Given the choice, isn’t it better that someone has an opportunity (whether they are wealthy or not) than nobody!!
I also do think that there is a case to be made for helping start-ups, and that a distinction needs to be made between large FTSE100 companies and small start-ups. In the same way that you want help graduates who can’t afford to take an unpaid internship, why shouldn’t startups who can’t afford to take on a paid intern also be helped (either by being allowed to employ unpaid interns, or by the government)?
Also @ Tanya
You do not sound threatening. I just think people are twisting a word in the title “Warning”. Which in my opinion is just a good hook for someone to read the email in the first place!!
@Jamie – you have completely missed the whole point and discussion here. Nobody is questioning that graduates add a huge amount of value. I am a recent graduate too.
The point is that there are a lot of start ups who can simply NOT AFFORD to pay an intern. So the choice is either (a) no internship (start up misses out as does a graduate somewhere who misses out on an employment opportunity) or (b) startup takes on a WILLING unpaid intern (startup benefits, hopefully so much that they can afford to then employ the graduate & the graduate massively benefits from the learning experience).
That is all we are getting at. As the ESC guys say it is very simple: ‘Paid internship better than unpaid internship. Unpaid internship better than no internship’
Finally, what I am getting at with volunteering is that given you & @tanya’s arguments, volunteering is discriminatory because only the people who can afford to give up their time (with no pay) can volunteer. You were lucky enough to be able to volunteer – not everyone, especially those more unfortunate than you, could have done so!! It is exactly the same principle. We don’t go about trying to put a ban on volunteering though do we… of course not!!
@Ralph
Traditionally, i’m pretty sure that volunteering (genuine volunteering, that is) is something that people did around / outside their paid jobs? Most people can spare a couple of hours to work in their local soup kitchen once a week. Expecting someone to ‘volunteer’ full-time just isn’t reasonable! Everyone has bills to pay!
@Ralph
Well, if a start up can not afford an intern, then that is just the way it is. The company will just have to exist as a firm without one. I am not able to dine out on the future possibility that I might get a paid job at the end of an internship. It just seems odd that I would be paying my own wage, when I am an employee.
In the end, work is work and it should be paid accordingly.
@David
For the record i think this is absolutely fair enough! I’m sick of wannabe ‘Dragons’ thinking this is an acceptable way to treat young people, just because it fits with their own agenda of growing their company as fast as possible, as cheaply as possible. When it comes down to it, it’s arrogance and selfishness that drives this behaviour. Are we really expected to believe that ‘entrepreneurs’ who behave like this are running unpaid internships out of the goodness of their hearts? Come off it – they’re doing it because it means free labour for them. IMO the ‘Well it’s good experience for them’ thing comes in later, as an afterthought – and as a way to soothe their guilt.
@David Fabulous comment:
“In the end, work is work and it should be paid accordingly.”
I think some people are losing sight of this. For all the hot air about your obligation to society, your first obligation is to YOURSELF! If you get work, you pay tax (we hope), which means you put something back.
Businesses aren’t charities. They exist to make profit for their shareholders. The deal is this: you go to work for a business, and help contribute to its bottom-line. You don’t do it out of the goodness of your soul. You do it to get paid. There’s no point being coy about this.
Businesses know that at the beginning of your career you probably aren’t going to make pots of money for them. So they take you on at a lower wage than their skilled / experienced staff, and train you up.
So where in this do you sincerely believe you are so much of a liability, so hopeless at getting in to work every day, so unable to play nice with your colleages, clients and bosses that you are worth precisely NOTHING?
Most of the internships I hear about are not those where you fanny about on facebook all day. You’re working (yes, also learning, but I’m still learning in my job after years of experience – the alternative to learning is “brain dead”); contributing something to the company, and so on. You’re being asked to commit to far more than two weeks – months is the norm, and you do all this because you believe them when they say “oh, there’s a job at the end”? Yep, and the cheque’s in the post.
Tanya makes some very good arguments that companies can pay for interns, but it’s just that they don’t want to. At the end of the day it’s also your choice, but to me, it smells of exploitation.
@ Ralph
I did my volunteering after school, university and sometimes on weekends as well around my waiting job. I could not afford to not work, but I used my own free time to help people not as capable as myself. You seem to think that people cannot afford to give up a couple of hours at the weekend or after work? Rubbish.
Ralph, the point is that these are not “internships” if, by what is meant by that term, a position designed around the educational needs of the participant. In the majority of cases these “internships” are simply “jobs”, jobs for “workers” and, unless this country is going to take the backward step of abolishing the Minimum Wage (a basic right given to workers in most civilised societies) then these people should be paid.
Why is it suddenly thought to be acceptable that, just because someone is young, it’s OK to exploit them in the way that we would not do to anyone older?!
All i would say to those that disagree with unpaid internships then is DON’T APPLY for them… but clearly there are 1000’s of people that do want to go on them and see massive benefit from them so why prevent them from doing so?!? If you only want to do a job that is paid, nobody is forcing you to do an unpaid internship!! All that would happen if nobody applied for them is that there would be a lot more people who would miss out on a very good work experience. Its ridiculous.
Its almost like saying its unfair that some people can go on nice holidays when there are others out there that can’t afford to. You don’t go banning holiday companies from promoting nice holidays do you simply because some people can’t afford to go on them!!
@Ralph
I understand your perspective but what you need to realise is that completing a period of work experience is becoming an accepted pre-requisite to landing a first paid job after graduation. Which in itself, is not a problem and is actually a very positive development as it allows graduates to gain an insight into their chosen industry and to acquire useful practical skills. However employers are increasingly ditching paid work experience schemes (and even junior paid positions) for unpaid internships, exclusively for their own benefit. At the same time we are seeing an increase in the duration of these “internships”. There is a big difference between working for the minimum wage (or even expenses only) in a work experience placement for 2-4 weeks and working full-time, without pay for 6 months… For most people the latter is financial suicide. And this is the problem. Degree + 6 months-1 year of work experience (the majority of which is now unpaid) = junior role. It’s becoming necessary to have completed an internship before you will be considered for an entry level position/graduate scheme and, of course, if you are not wealthy it is difficult to “stand out” through doing an internship. The problem is precisely this; candidates now stand out for NOT having completed a period of work experience and when they are competing against others who have done so, it is clear who is disadvantaged.
No, that is a totally inappropriate analogy. What you are seemingly intent on ignoring is the fact that many people are unable to afford to work unpaid and it is entirely unreasonable in a meritocratic socienty that values Fair Access, that people are deprived of opportunities on the basis that they are unable to afford to take them.
If companies were forced to pay for the work that they want and need to be done then they would do so. Look at the adverts; nine times out of ten these positions are “jobs”, not “internships”
@Ralph
“If you only want to do a job that is paid, nobody is forcing you to do an unpaid internship!!”
One of the problems with unpaid internships is that, as they become increasingly prevalent (at an alarming rate), they are becoming a prerequisite for getting a job that is paid. This, actually, IS forcing people to do an unpaid internship (if they can afford it) and is one of the key reasons why they need to be regulated by government.
@Ralph
Just out of interest. In your opinion, why would a company ever bother to offer a graduate a PAID internship?
Ralph, what on earth are you talking about? I’ve been applying for paying jobs since I graduated in July 2009 but unless you’ve got up to 2 years’ experience/a first/a famous relative they just aren’t interested. I guess they have to wade through thousands of CVs and it’s one way to save them time, but trust me, working for free (which I’ve been doing since July) is NOT my first choice, it’s the employer’s.
*been interning since July 2010, I worked two low-paying jobs for the year before so I could save up enough to intern. But, hey, look, I’ve run out of money and no employers are biting! Guess it’s McDonald’s for me then!
Perhaps a better analogy than Ralph’s expensive holiday is private schools. The vast majority of people cannot afford private education, yet private education has been proved to be a major benefit when going through life (more likely to get into top uni, get better job etc). Does that mean we ban private education, as it is not meritocratic/promote fair access?
@RedHeadFashionista
What roles have you been applying for? Not wanting to sound harsh, but just because you have a degree in something doesn’t entitle you to work in a particular profession. Plenty of people move into sectors different from their studies.
Also, don’t get hung up about trying to get your ‘dream’ job or even ideal sector straight out of uni – just get into employment and keep searching – apologies if this is what you’ve been trying.
This issue isn’t just about people being unable to afford to work for free – it’s also about people not having the innate skills for other industries where paid work might be more readily available. I have a natural aptitude for words, and very little for numeracy or practical subjects, and have been this way for as long as I or anyone else can remember. I’m a born writer/communicator – simple as that. No amount of intervention is going to make me a brilliant plumber or engineer, no matter how much the market needs or values these skills. That is why it makes me deeply sad and angry to see my skill being devalued and restricted to those who can afford to use them for what is essentially a full-time hobby. How anyone can argue in favour of internships by saying “If you don’t like it, go and do something different” – let alone fatuously compare it to choosing a holiday – is beyond me.
@Matt
Of course it doesn’t “entitle” you to work in a certain industry however it does show a certain level of commitment and dedication to that discipline and industry. We should see this as something positive. I don’t think that the issue is necessarily with students choosing to study a specific subject and then having unrealistic or outdated expectations about finding a job in that field. That is, after all, what we are all led to believe when we apply for university level education; that our degree in journalism will mean we will be able to work as journalists… The problem, I believe, is that too many degrees do not focus enough on developing professional skills and marketable knowledge and experience. And employers are only too aware of this. Which is why we then end up in a situation where graduates are expected to have done unpaid internships, to gain the “real-life” skills lacking in many university degrees.
Another point related to this: Transferable skills gained from a (humanities/arts) university degree are all well and good but one of the main problems I have with higher education in the UK is that it isn’t sufficiently vocational and focused on qualifying and training the student to work in a specific field. I’m thinking of degrees in subjects such as: Modern Languages, Psychology, Journalism etc. In many other European countries these degrees lead to an actual qualification enabling the graduate to carry out the specific profession concerned, i.e. one would graduate as a qualified interpreter/translator/teacher, psychologist or journalist and would therefore be able to move into their chosen industry, with only their professional qualification. Unpaid internships are not, therefore, required. We need to get back to this approach, particularly now that tuition fees are going to be even higher. Many degrees are highly valued by employers in the UK but we all know that it is considered that many of the arts degrees do not equip graduates with sufficient real-life skills and transferable knowledge. This needs to change, in my opinion. Otherwise we have people who, for example, have an intimate understanding of European politics and history and a working knowledge of three languages and are wasting their acquired skills and knowledge in an administrative role in an industry they are not interested in and see no career prospects in… There is a lot to be said for being flexible in your career path however, at the same time, it’s important that the skills we do acquire at university are not ignored or devalued. There is a great deal of untapped potential in the 20-25 age bracket today, both among graduates and those who chose not to study at university, and in my opinion unpaid internships are simply exploitation and a case of businesses abusing their power. No-one really gets ahead except the shareholders.