32 Comments

1. Intern on September 9, 2010 at 2:13 pm

   Employers are doing interns a massive favour by allowing them to learn within their organisation. This summer I have worked have done a number of internships in the Finance Sector and so far I have worked for free to being subsidised by my uni and have been paid of £800 per week… the place where I worked for free, I was given loads of help support and guidence. where I was paid a lot, people were often too busy to help or give their time… I dont think that employers need to change, but there should be more help from uni’s and the gov…

2. Lauren on September 9, 2010 at 2:21 pm

   Why don’t you request an interview for the site from someone senior at HMRC? That might be a good way to get through.

   Also, I think that email of the 20th is contesting your understanding of the NMW legislation. Not that I necessarily agree! That’s just how I read the first bit.

3. Tanya de Grunwald on September 9, 2010 at 3:10 pm

   @Lauren

   Why don’t you request an interview for the site from someone senior at HMRC? That might be a good way to get through.

   Great minds! I’m already on the case… ; )

   Also, I think that email of the 20th is contesting your understanding of the NMW legislation. Not that I necessarily agree! That’s just how I read the first bit.

   Can you explain what you mean by this? To me it reads like a standard email giving me a ton of information and pushing the responsibility on to ME to decide whether my complaint is worth investigating, rather than them…??

4. Christopher on September 9, 2010 at 3:13 pm

   Tanya, this is utterly disgraceful! They are simply not fulfilling their duties! I am appalled. I am actually going to attempt to e-mail them, as a Graduate Fog user who is passionate about putting an end to this exploitation and explain my dismay at their refusal to accept this information from you. It’s just not acceptable!

5. wendy on September 9, 2010 at 3:15 pm

   I think you need to chill out, if students like myself felt that we were being discriminated then why would we put ourselves in such a position WE want an easy life!!. WE CHOOSE consciously whether we want to take an internship for only travel expenses. The knowledge we learn is more valuable towards our career path. If Vogue Magazine or CNN offered me or others an internship UNPAID Im sure many would jump to the chance to have the company name stated on their CV, as this will open doors for their future.

   Further to money issues EVERYONE is capable of getting a part time job on weekends or in the evenings… when your studying many students grab part time jobs. I think you should reconsider how YOU could help students and grads gain more experience and how benefit their time in internships rather than your unnecessary complaining.

6. Christopher on September 9, 2010 at 3:37 pm

   @Wendy
   That’s just the issue. Individual graduates need to make the decision as to whether, for example, a 6 month unpaid internship (the majority of which are based in London, one of the most expensive cities in the world) is financially viable for them. And even if they were to chose to work an additional 30 hour week in a part-time job (most likely at minimum wage), which is probably the maximum amount of hours you could possibly work, whilst undertaking a, for arguments sake, internship of 40 hours a week, that wage is still not going to cover all living and travel expenses. Not to mention the fact that effectively working two jobs, amounting to a 60/70 hour week, only 20/30 hours of which is actually paid (and probably badly paid at that) is going to leave interns exhausted and demoralised meaning that they will not get as much out of the “experience” as they could have, had they been fairly remunerated for their time. And in reality most interns don’t do this; they either live off their parents (not an option for those of us who do not come from a wealthy background) or savings (again, most people who have sufficient saving to cover 3-6 months of living expenses in London at the age of 23, for example, have more likely than not been given the money and not earned it themselves, meaning that they are also probably from a privileged family background). Therefore, it is evident that internships exclude all but the wealthiest of candidates. And this is just not fair. Providing at least the minimum wage would allow interns to have a dignified existence while completing their work and would mean that valuable work experience could be acquired by graduates from all classes and backgrounds. Not to mention the fact that the vast majority of these large corporations offering internships, such as the two you mention, are more than financially capable of paying at least basic salaries to their interns who often provide a valuable contribution to the company…

7. Katie on September 9, 2010 at 3:41 pm

   @wendy

   Yes but the problem is that now there internships are becoming the norm, so as well as getting the degree candidates for jobs now need to have a year worths of work experience under their belt too…

   I will jump through all the hoops I can to make a start on a career I enjoy, but I cannot afford to take an unpaid internship and logistically it generally isn’t possible either due to where I live and where the internships are based.

   And I wouldnt be so sure of everyone being capable of getting a part time job on weekends/evenings. I am applying for all sorts of positions at the moment with little success. Why? Because as a graduate employers see me as overqualified for a lot of school-leaver type jobs and consider me a bad investment as I am sure to leave the company when something better comes along and they can hire an 18yr old to do the same job for less money… Yet when it comes to graduate level positions I am lacking the necessary experience… which nobody will give me!!!

   And as for choosing conciously to do these internships… yes I guess we do but when I am applying for them it’s not because I particulary want to work for free but because I know I need to in order to even be considered for many of the graduate positions I’m applying for. Something definately needs to be done about it, whether its in the form of regulating internships or extra financial support from the government for interns I don’t know but at present it is unfair.

8. Lauren on September 9, 2010 at 3:45 pm

   “The term “intern” is not a term mentioned in NMW legislation. NMW legislation is only concerned with whether the person is a worker and that if a person enters into a worker/employer relationship in the UK then the person will be entitled to NMW.”

   I read that bit, and the fact they’ve outlined the definitions, as them saying that “intern” is not necessarily synonymous with “worker”. I.e., that when a paid employment contract is made, it must be NMW, but it not, it’s ok as long as everyone understands what is involved. Which I’m aware is an argument used by employers, but that’s what it sounds like they’re saying to me. I could be wrong, and it’s unhelpfully signed by no individual. That’s just my interpretation, though!.

   For my part, I did an eight week internship in the summer before my third year of undergraduate, for which I received a small grant that covered travel, and I think it was very valuable. It was a good one, though, and they made an effort to give me a real oversight of what the organisation did at to introduce me to good contacts. I wasn’t doing admin, I had a set project to complete and at the end I presented my results a couple of times to external groups and a group of board members from rather high profile organisations. I had to go through an application process including interviews. I had no illusions that there’d be a job at the end of it, but it definitely helped me find work later on and gave me some good references. I think there is a difference between that sort of internship, and one where they keep someone on to do admin for free, essentially. I didn’t feel like I was just cheap labour, I got the impression they were happy to give someone that experience if they wanted it but the project wasn’t essential. If they’d had to pay eight weeks wages, it probably wouldn’t have made the cut. I think that now I would consider using some of my leave to do unpaid work if it was particularly prestigious and something that used my skills and helped me make contacts.

9. Lauren on September 9, 2010 at 3:50 pm

   I’d add that in my industry at that time, one high-quality internship was enough to give me a bit of an edge in interviews. University summer holidays allow for a few, but continuing after graduation wouldn’t have been financially sustainable for long. I’d have had to look elsewhere.

10. Jim on September 9, 2010 at 4:28 pm

    @ Christopher – you’ve obviously never done an internship /attempted to do one /had any life experience as you are referring constantly to stereotypes created in the media – not real life scenarios. It is as Lauren said – there ARE good internships – a lot actually, you just don’t hear about them on sites like Tanya’s…and sure, there are bad ones – but it seriously comes down to common sense! If you are stupid enough to work for a company, doing their filing and making teas, unpaid for 6 months – 18 years, then yes, you are a fool. The point is, a lot of internships are extremely beneficial,no longer than 3 months max (i.e a university holiday period) and give you industry insight that just cannot be taught. The bottom line is if you are not learning anything and you are feeling exploited then leave! It’s very simple!

11. Katie on September 9, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    Jim just out of interest what industry do you work in / took your internship in?

12. Tanya de Grunwald on September 9, 2010 at 4:39 pm

    @Wendy

    I’ve got to be honest – I’m utterly baffled that you feel that me taking the time (which I’m not paid for!) to stand up for your right to be paid a wage that was only ever intended to be for the lowest-skilled workers in our society is ‘unnecessary complaining’!

    Thank you for commenting though – you’re not the first person to say this kind of thing to me (we’re having a similar debate over on yesterday’s post. While I admire your work ethic, I worry that in the coming ‘age of austerity’, these part-time jobs are going to become very thin on the ground. What we will find is that in order to subsidise their unpaid internships, graduates will start taking jobs that used to be done by non-graduates – working in bars and shops etc. Then where does that leave the non-graduates? In this scenario, the only people who win are the companies, most of whom – especially the big ones – have PLENTY of money to pay their young staff, whatever they claim. You guys are NOT expensive. Think about what the company boss will be paid. And how much that company will spend on advertising and PR every year. And on HR. And on new computers. Your 18k salary is nothing to them. You’re bright, you work hard and you pick things up quickly. I only wish you had a bit more belief in the value that you bring to the workplace. I hate that the commercial world has made you feel like you’re worth nothing to them without ‘experience’. It simply isn’t true!

13. Christopher on September 9, 2010 at 4:46 pm

    @Jim
    It would be nice to believe that is is that simple. However my opinion is that your views of the situation are highly simplistic and optimistic. And for your information yes, I have completed work experience placements, albeit short-term ones, in the past, and I also have plenty of life experience, having lived and worked in several industries and in several countries. I really don’t think that the situation many graduates find themselves in (and I’m speaking from experience, about friends and family) is really conducive to taking the reigns as you’ve described. Graduates today find themselves in extremely vulnerable and precarious situations with regards to the job market and for many, if not most, walking away from an internship that they (often mistakenly) believe may benefit them in the long term, even if they are aware that they are being exploited, is simply not an option. We need to educate graduates and businesses and enforce our laws! They are there for a reason and in other countries, in continental Europe for example, the sort of practices that are commonplace and accepted in the UK are simply not tolerated.

14. Kagem Tibaijuka on September 9, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    Wendy clearly does not want to eat. Those who do will hustle to find paid work.

15. wendy on September 9, 2010 at 4:50 pm

    @ Christopher I think you have gone off subject, If you cant afford to live in one of the busiest cities in the world, don’t live in it or live somewhere outside and commute (you do know that most internships pay for travel expenses) Whether your wealthy or not, life is hard and only the most fortunate do receive it on a plate but then those don’t actually need an internships!!!

    @Katie Most PRO ACTIVE students gain experience while studying you have 3 years in a degree to learn, have a student life and use it wisely by having at least 3 internships a year, Easter, summer and winter.. By the time you finish your degree you should be ready to throw all your experiences and qualifications when in interviews.

    “overqualified for a lot of school-leaver type jobs and consider me a bad investment as I am sure to leave the company when something better comes along and they can hire an 18yr old to do the same job for less money… Yet when it comes to graduate level positions I am lacking the necessary experience… which nobody will give me!!! You obviously do not have high aspirations and goals. Why would you be applying for jobs that are easy and give you nothing to add to your CV !! Internships also mean that if you’re not being paid you can leave when ever you want or choose to work 3-4 days giving you time for a part time job….

    Genuine companies want to help you they have taken an interest with your experiences and qualifications that could later benefit the company when they offer you a job) not use you!!! Now with the recession many job positions have been combined to lessen job titles. An internship is a step into a company, if you network which is how a lot of jobs spread, a good reputation of yourself will be talked about positively within the industry. If you look at the long term perspective it is 100 percent better; knowing that you are gaining loads of experience and working for free but a job is at the end of the line, as a paid internship probably will lead you looking AGAIN for another job or internship. Its an investment for life.

16. Ben Lyons on September 9, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    Hi Wendy,

    I run a campaign on fairer internships called Intern Aware. We don’t doubt that your experience was very valuable and will have helped your future employability. But that’s precisely the problem. Many people – however hard they work, however much they save – simply cannot afford to work for free and get access to the same experience. In a post-recession climate where there are 70 applicants for every graduate job, internships have become essential for many people to get employed. Unpaid internships lead to a more unequal society.

17. Christopher on September 9, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    But Wendy, really, do you honestly believe in the current day, that most(or even a significant proportion)of internships are really being used in that way and really lead to a full-time paid position which is appropriate for a graduate? I agree that life is tough etc etc but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be trying to improve on the current situation and make the myth of obtaining a well-paid job after graduation, which we were all promised by our education system and society, a reality, rather than a terrible disappointment…
    I completely agree that it is essential for *students* to be pro-active and obtain as much experience as possible while at university, BEFORE graduation. However I still believe that people should be paid for their time, whether they are students, graduates or unemployed former CEO’s!

18. wendy on September 9, 2010 at 5:15 pm

    @Kagem – I eat perfectly fine ! Do you think youll be eating if your sitting for months restricting yourself for looking for only paid internships… broad your horizons and get yourself a part time job or a full time job for a year to save money. Going abroad may even help you, its cheaper, you can learn a language and other cultures(which adds to your CV and intellectual capacity) save your money,while on holiday ! 😀

19. Jim on September 9, 2010 at 5:23 pm

    I think the point I am trying to make is that though the idea of everyone getting paid is lovely (and I would equally argue ‘simplistic and optimistic’), it is unrealistic. People do not pay for things they don’t need. By enforcing payment, opportunities will be lost. And I don’t believe that an extra couple of months work – with expenses paid – is that big a deal. You studied without being paid for it didn’t you Christopher? Did you feel exploited then? Surely not because it was beneficial and it was your choice and you could see the bigger picture? I would argue internships are an extension of this, a result of recession and so forth – which ultimately is a result of bad decisions made (I’m sorry, but it’s true) by Tanya’s generation and beyond.

20. Christopher on September 9, 2010 at 5:27 pm

    @Wendy

    “Going abroad” is a bit of an umbrella term. Any travel will involve plane/train/boat fares, accommodation, possibly visas and work permits not to mention living costs… And additionally, believe it or not, not all of “abroad” is cheaper than the UK! Some countries are as expensive if not more so; try Norway, Germany, Sweden, Denmark or Japan to mention a few! I agree with the principle but again, if we are talking about people who cannot afford to do an unpaid internship, I’m not sure “going abroad” is the best idea. Especially, if you are “going on holiday”! Because that’s all “abroad” is for…?! How exactly will “I went on holiday” contribute to your CV…

21. Christopher on September 9, 2010 at 5:29 pm

    @Jim
    Yes, I paid for my education because there was a guaranteed outcome, as long as I put in the necessary effort= a degree! I could work for six months, unpaid, in an internship and there is no guaranteed outcome. That’s the difference.

22. Kagem Tibaijuka on September 9, 2010 at 5:33 pm

    I can’t believe the amount of commenters on here that think working unpaid for several months and months is fair.

    Really shocked.

23. Tanya de Grunwald on September 9, 2010 at 5:36 pm

    @Jim

    I agree that people don’t pay for things they don’t need – but these companies DO need new, bright, young staff. If you’ve been there more than a couple of weeks and you’re doing proper work and you’re doing it well, your contribution IS worth paying for.

    I agree that unpaid internships have become an extension of university – but only because employers have turned into bullies and are squeezing you so that in effect you guys end up training yourselves, so you come to them pre-trained, which saves them a load of cash.

    I want to see responsible employers who care about the next generation of young people return to fulfilling their responsibilities. Demanding that you train yourselves – at a huge cost to you and none to them – is simply not fair or right.

    And as for this idea being too ‘optimistic’, i don’t think it is. Even if companies don’t really care about their young employees, they DO care about their image. And if we can get more publicity for the what the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury’s etc have been up to, we can absolutely bring the spotlight on to them and get this situation changed.

    In a time of such high youth unemployment, being caught taking advantage of young people – in a practice that is ILLEGAL – is a really bad look for these companies. I want us to get to a point where admitting to using unpaid interns is as shameful as admitting you regularly drive drunk. I think this is absolutely achievable. I’ve already noticed it when people from big companies meet me. They often make a point of saying they do pay their interns… Maybe that’s just because they fear I’ll write them up on Graduate Fog, but i’ve also begun to see a flicker of shame on people’s faces, when the subject comes up… Which I find extremely encouraging!!

24. Tanya de Grunwald on September 9, 2010 at 5:38 pm

    @Kagem

    I can’t believe the amount of commenters on here that think working unpaid for several months and months is fair.

    Really shocked.

    I’m taken aback too! But I think it’s really interesting and would like to encourage more debate like this. Fascinating stuff. And I’m genuinely really proud that GF is the ONLY place where this sort of debate is happening.

    Am chuffed to bits : )

    Thanks all – you’re the best xx

25. Katie on September 9, 2010 at 6:17 pm

    Katie Most PRO ACTIVE students gain experience while studying you have 3 years in a degree to learn, have a student life and use it wisely by having at least 3 internships a year, Easter, summer and winter.. By the time you finish your degree you should be ready to throw all your experiences and qualifications when in interviews.

    I fully agree and students definately need to be encouraged to do this if they are in a position to do so! On the other hand I wasn’t being lazy when I worked two paying jobs whilst at university to pay for my degree… I couldn’t afford to take up long term internships then either and what snippets of work experience I did manage to get (varying from a few days to a week) don’t stand up against a candidate who interned for 3 months+.

    You obviously do not have high aspirations and goals. Why would you be applying for jobs that are easy and give you nothing to add to your CV !!

    I find that offensive and unwarranted given I haven’t in any of my posts on graduate fog gone into the specifics of my career aspirations and goals… so how would you know? For your information I am applying for ‘easy’ jobs as well as graduate jobs because ultimately bills need to be paid and I have a huge amount of debt to pay off. I am also applying for ‘easy’ jobs in an attempt to get my foot in the door of companies which offer career prospects, because my degree isn’t getting me very far. I am also aware that any graduate schemes I do apply to will most likely commence in Sept 2011, what do you propose I do in the meantime? These ‘easy’ jobs are also what you suggest interns work part-time in order to support themselves alongside their unpaid internship and I just wanted to point out that in some cases that is easier said than done!

    Genuine companies want to help you they have taken an interest with your experiences and qualifications that could later benefit the company when they offer you a job) not use you!!! Now with the recession many job positions have been combined to lessen job titles. An internship is a step into a company, if you network which is how a lot of jobs spread, a good reputation of yourself will be talked about positively within the industry. If you look at the long term perspective it is 100 percent better; knowing that you are gaining loads of experience and working for free but a job is at the end of the line, as a paid internship probably will lead you looking AGAIN for another job or internship. Its an investment for life.

    I think this is a very optimistic view on internships, but yes in principle I agree they have the potential to offer a lot to a grad but should they be a prerequisite to gaining any graduate employment? If so in my opinion they should be included within a degree or financial aid should be extended to cover the internship period. Currently, I feel the system is open to exploitation by some employers and exclusive – there just isn’t as many opportunities for graduates outside of London!

26. Tanya de Grunwald on September 9, 2010 at 7:14 pm

    @Katie

    I’m totally with you – and also thought Wendy’s comments about your goals were a bit harsh! However, you say:

    I think this is a very optimistic view on internships, but yes in principle I agree they have the potential to offer a lot to a grad but should they be a prerequisite to gaining any graduate employment? If so in my opinion they should be included within a degree or financial aid should be extended to cover the internship period.

    Sorry but I just don’t see why anybody other than the employer should pick up the bill for internships, when it’s the employer who is gaining the most from your work! (unless you’re just doing 2 weeks of shadowing or similar) Why on earth should the state (ie taxpayer) pay what is effectively a private company’s training costs? The fat cats are just being cheap-arses, plain and simple – and we need to call them out on it! Likewise, universities have never said that they are there to do private companies’ training for them.

    Did you see my Guardian article on this subject? Basically I see the problem being that nobody is prepared to pay for the ‘in-between’ bit between uni and you being totally work-ready – the unis, companies and politicians have all passed the buck…. on to guess who? That’s right – you!

    What’s happened has been very slow, subtle and sneaky – but basically I believe you guys have ended up with a really raw deal on several counts. Which is why i’m trying to help you negotiate a better one! : )

27. Lauren on September 9, 2010 at 8:02 pm

    I think it’s true that things would be more equitable if internships were subject to enforced legislation on National Minimum Wage. It might be hard to police and inevitably people would sneak around it and hope not to get caught. And if employer and intern were happy that could happen very easily in smaller business. But it would remove the trend on the whole. However, as has been observed, there would be fewer internships available if that happened. Not even just because of wages, but because of the HR costs associated with hiring. So then the interview process would decide who got those places, and there’d presumably be a higher chance of them turning into full-time jobs. And then those who didn’t sort something out within a reasonable amount of time would look into other avenues faster and so not accrue so much debt. It wouldn’t affect the graduate employment level, because no jobs are being created, but it does remove the asymmetry of information around opportunity.

    Is that all fair enough, Tanya?

28. Joolsy on September 10, 2010 at 11:03 am

    If you have a large number of non-compliant adverts its incredibly time consuming to use their form. It is acceptable and free to print it out adverts (hardcopy) on your printer and post the advert to…..

    National Minimum Wage
    FREEPOST PHQ1
    Newcastle Upon Tyne
    NE98 1ZH

    Please note you need to include as much info as poss. including the physical address of the employer a simple google search will usually turns the main mailing address up. You can also use http://whois.domaintools.com/ to track down web domains and their owners.

29. Claire on September 10, 2010 at 12:20 pm

    Jim says “You studied without being paid for it didn’t you Christopher? Did you feel exploited then?” There is a big difference between studying and doing an internship. After spending three years doing a degree and taking into account the amount of money spent on tuition fees and the student loan I have to pay back with interest added to it, I don’t expect to be doing an unpaid internship. While doing a degree the student can plan financially for it and will take out a loan because they know it is 3 years whereas the graduate doing an internship has no idea when they will be getting a paid job so it is more difficult to plan financially. I am saying that students can be more financially prepared for doing a degree than an internship. Many internships are in London and if they last 6 months they will have to pay for 6 months rent in London which is unaffordable for many people. In this economic climate with planned job cuts there is no guarantee of finding a part-time job and even a part-time job would not pay enough for 5 or 6 months rent in London for someone to do an unpaid internship.

30. Clare on September 10, 2010 at 2:27 pm

    I think Tanya’s point about the insiduousness of internships: “What’s happened has been very slow, subtle and sneaky — but basically I believe you guys have ended up with a really raw deal on several counts.” is particularly apt.

    I live in Italy where the choice is either national / regional competitions to get into training schemes and permanent contracts (for government ministries, regional govt posts, banks etc etc) or internships in private companies. Interns typically get travel expenses and occasionally lunch paid for, but otherwise work for free. I know bright graduates in their 30’s doing this, still living at home, still hoping that someone will give them a proper contract. As far as I know, it’s not illegal here, so companies use interns as cheap labour. Yes, the interns learn new skills, and can beef up their CVs. But does it make any difference in the end? No, because companies continue to take them on as interns, because they don’t have to pay them!

    Once companies get used to free labout, it’s hard to persuade them that they should start paying for it. That’s a slippery slope which will affect not just current interns, but future generations of interns.

    Clare

31. Mark on June 29, 2011 at 3:38 am

    Tanya, just host the screenshots on another site, and submit the link via there.

32. Tanya de Grunwald on June 29, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    @Mark

    Thanks for the tip. Which sites do you suggest? Sorry for being stupid!